Searching for God in Classical Music

This "something" can be found in the beauty (the divine, as a reasonable metaphor, according to Vic) of the Music (one of the features on which probably we all agree). The beauty cannot be found in the means (talent of the composer or skills of the musician) but at the end of both, namely the "actual work" and the "listening experience". By all means, the talent and the skills contribute to a high degree to the outcome, but there are other factors, some of them going beyond any means (inspiration, purpose of the composition and of the performance, the role of the audience -in the listening experience- and so on). This "something" (the undefined by definition, I'm afraid) lies sometimes in the work, sometimes in the "listening experience" and, in quite a few blissful occasions, in both. If our appreciation for the outcome was the result of the talent and the skills only, then, I'm afraid the composers' gift and the performers' abilities will end up as pleasurable means to a measurable end. 

We may all agree that in "Missa Solemnis" we can trace this "something", this "beauty" (the divine, the metaphor) in the actual work (in the final product of the composer). We may also agree that this "something" is so linked with the work, that, even in a modest performance, can be traced. However, if you put "missa solemnis" as a background music, when you do something else, everything is lost. So, even in cases of "absolute masterworks", we need a relevant "listening experience". We need the "temple" (sorry the space, the venue) where we will house the event.

Maybe you never wonder why and how, in a concert hall, after a good performance of a solid work, everybody, regardless of whether they believe or not there is "something" (in the air), stand up applauding and cheering and , most of time, asking for more. The extraordinary thing is that, despite all the different views, aspirations, understanding of music, social or religious standing, they all feel "something" thrilling in common that unites them and the audience as a whole with the performers. This unbelievable, extraordinary convergance of act (not of views) is an absolute "something", for which we should be thankful, since, in very few (or almost none) occasions, may happen.

Sorry for elaborating so, but I really wish to find this convergance which I trace in all these exchanges of interesting and inspiring "dissonances". I also sincerely hope that, despite we have been lost in some chromatic scale, we may opt for a resolution either in the "tonic major" or even in the "relative major" in the question (in minor) "searching God in classical music". (For the moment, take it as a joke, or a metaphor).

Parla

To be precise (the Classical Music should be called, according to Bernstein, as precise music, because what is played, is exactly what is written), I said : (For the moment), take it as a joke or metaphor. That doesnot mean it is a joke. However, if you like it as a joke, I may take it too, despite I may prefer the metaphor, for instance.

And, by all means, "the joke" refers only to the "resolution" matter; the rest of the text stands. So, does the "resolution" as a quest. 

All the best, Gary

Parla

I see, Gary, you get more and more aggressive as well as offensive. I never labeled anyone's intervention. So far, all the others have followed this rule of a proper forum's search. So, I think it is expected you should do the same, but so far and you confine yourself to fragmantery and fractional reactions to my analytical argumentation, which, at least by Aligator Dumbarton, has been followed (he shared my train of thoughts), by others (troyen1 and Vic) has created some reaction, but quite legitimate and respectable.

In any case, I urge you to read the Post from the very start (Archduke55 initiated it in a very pertinent and noble way). Read the very well articulated positions of Micos69, Richard33 and Daniel_Marcel. They all tried to contribute to the "quest" for a possible answer. So did I, in a more affirmative and assertive way. If you are a nonbeliever, as you claim, you simply have to dismiss the question, by calling it irrelevant, which is a legitimate reply.

So far, your "pertinent" proposal, after a rather quite good, long and productive  exchange of views, is merely to agree on the basis of whatever we may find sufficient in music. So, the music is, after all, "a mesurable end" and the poor performers have to end up to the "pleasurable means" for our enjoyment (by the way, this overheated messianic statement belongs to a significant contemporary composer - to whom? I leave it for your homework).

I remind you that the subject of this Post is whether we may find God in Classical Music. It is not how and why we enjoy or listen to the music. Your response, as a nonbeliever, should be crystal clear. All of us, believers, semi-believers, quasi-believers, semi-atheists, quasi-atheists, we may pursue our quest. By the way, I never said I am a believer; I simply replied, in a chain of analytical thoughts, that God (provided that It can be identified as linked with Faith, Hope and Love) may be found in classical music.

Therefore, dear Gary, we don't have to agree on anything, since you clearly see God in "square circles" and the listenig to the music confines to the "whatever sufficient (reasons or goals) you find there". In our search, we try to identify all these "extra", that we never asked or expected, but we encounter along the way with the "sufficient" (and sometimes even with the "insufficient".

So long,

Parla

Eventually, Gary, I think we may meet somewhere in the middle.

I didn't say I am offended by your views or your proposal about the "sufficient reasons" or because you don't espouse my view that there might be "something" divine in music. I just said that you answer a whole argumentation by giving "labels", always in the offensive side (particularly this "overheated messianic rhetoric" was too..."overheated").

As for your proposal, your argument to enjoy music for whatever reason sufficient we may found is absolutely pertinent and valid, if our quest was about how and why we enjoy music. However, if we wish to address this Post's subject, we have to face the question, whether we experience (and trace) something more, beyond our enjoyment (or even the lack of it), when we listen to (classical) music. I hope this time we may start understanding (if not comprehending) each other.Thanks,Parla

Perhaps, certain composers thought that they were injecting a God into their music, perhaps, some of them thought that their music was written to, and for, the Glory of God, others thought that they had been inspired by, even heard, their God speak to them (note, however, that Beethoven stated that his Mass came from the heart).

I do not care, particularly, and think more fool them but that does not diminish the power of their music.

If anything this God nonsense attempts to diminish that power i.e. it is not of humankind but god-given. Ugh!

I guess according to Parla, a word salad a day keeps the sane folks away.

Gary

I think this has gotten away from the original post, so to be extremely simplistic let me just say that if you believe in God you will find his/her (as your preference may be) presence everywhere - nature, the arts, your fellow human, etc. If you don't believe in God, then so what? Life still goes on and you can enjoy it on your own terms.