Searching for God in Classical Music

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I side with Parla, in this argument. For me, the spark of
life, albeit temporary in this realm of existence. Leads me to believe there is
more to it, than can be perceived in our limited consciousness. For me Vic
nailed it on the head, when he said, “perhaps the limitation is mine.”I would refer to Plato’s Republic, where there are prisoners
in a cave, whose movements are restricted, which results in limited perception.Consciousness, life, whatever you want to call it, for me is
something special, beyond a limited logic.

If someone from the medieval period or even earlier was to time travel to the present they would probably hear nothing spiritual at all in say Beethoven's Missa Solemnis or Wagner's Parsifal. I assume these pieces would sound to them like an unbearable din. Similarly someone from the present day who has say lived in India all their lives would probably not hear anything spiritual either because they are used to a completely different style of devotional music. 

Thus I would have thought its very difficult to suggest that there is some kind of universal human truth being revealed in either of these pieces.

Ted

Amazing.  It's all one, isn't it?  You question my right to discriminate against a minority, or indoctrinate children, or impose my beliefs on others, and I'll claim persecution for my beliefs.  You attempt to bring logic into the area of religion and you insult my faith.  Grow up, it's the 21st Century and our freedom to discuss this subject is possible because you can't burn us at the stake for expressing an opinion any more.   Belief in the supernatural is not above criticism whether you feel insulted by it or not. 

I do not dismiss this argument because I don't agree with it; I dismiss it because there is no evidence whatsoever for it and it defies any logical, or even reasonable explanation - in my opinion.  

There are only two ways to view that which is beyond our current understanding.  One - to ask questions and to seek further knowledge through logic and the use of scientific enquiry to push back the boundaries of our ignorance.  Or two - to elevate that ignorance into a glorified, hallowed mysticism, claim a link with tradition and morality - and attack its criticisms as persecution or insult.

Try to give some understanding to the atheist's point of view: if there is no god, what are people who claim to see him in classical music responding to?  There have been some intelligent responses on both sides of this question.  There have been some that I defy anyone to make coherent sense of.  And there have been some who are insulted by being asked to even consider the question.  That is what is intellectually juvenile. 

Vic.

"Question: How on earth can an atheist listen for more than 12 minutes, in the first movement of the magnificent Beethoven's Missa Solemnis, hundreds of people singing about 100 times, in any possible way, Kyrie Eleison, or for another 10 min. soloists and chorus singing relentlessly Benedictus and, at the end, a multitude of times Amen?"

Er, quite easily actually. My partner is an atheist, I am a (believing) Roman Catholic. We sat next to each other at the Albert Hall at the recent Proms/LSO/Davis performance, one of the highlights of the season for us. We both found it an equally moving experience. The notion that I found it more so because of some direct line to the Almighty which she doesn't have access to is risible. Who knows, maybe she, and thousands like her in the hall, were suffering from some bizarre religious form of Marxist false consciousness.

I don't care whether you,Vic - or anyone else - is, or is not, an atheist or believes that the world was created 3000 years ago. It's entirely up to him. But I'm firmly on his side when the question of 'God in music' is concerned. As he succinctly summed it up in an earlier post;

"Being moved by art proves nothing more than that one is moved by art."

Best of luck with this Vic - you have my sympathies!

JKH 

I have to reply separately these last two posts. So, first TedR:

The difference of these notions you sense them, when reading a book about Love or Hope and when listening to Classical Music, is the following:

In the book, you know what to expect (Love, Hope, etc), for it is specifically written about certain aspects of these notions in concrete situations. Normally, you don't expect and you don't trace too many other notions, unless they are linked specifically with the subject and the development of the story. On the contrary, in Classical Music, you are not prepared for anything, since the music is the most elusive, abstract and non-descriptive (despite its very precise writing) form of Art. So, it's amazing when you sense, even in "programmatic" works like Beethoven's Pastorale, notions like Faith, Hope, Love, Human Spirit, Good along with the features of Nature. Much more, in  abstract, absolute works, like the Last String Quartets of Beethoven or some incredible Preludes and Fugues of Bach, I stand in astonishment, when I encounter all these notions and even more that words are too poor to honour them and, at the same time, what I sense is something very familiar and extremely desired.

That's why Music is an international language. It can be perceived by anyone, anywhere and, even if we can easily be lost in the "translation" of the notes, we still believe we admire, like, appreciate the same work of art, even when we disagree on the reasons and our "findings" there. If we agree this is happening, then, there is something...that unite us and we have to trace it.

JKH, it's too late. I reserve to come back later...

Parla

Fair enough, JKH, I overlook it as never written.

(However, you address it to me and I am supposed to reply, if I feel your answer does not cover my question).

Parla

I thoroughly enjoyed a tremendous performance of Verdi's Requiem at Symphony Hall in Birmingham last Thursday with the CBSO Orchestra and Chorus under Andris Nelsons.  

While much of the music could easily evoke the joyful and heart-warming allusions expressed in this thread, what should be made of the holy terror Verdi creates around the Day of Judgement?  The shock and power of the music giving awesome life to the text: "Dies irea ... how great a terror ... righteous judge of vengeance ... that I be not burned in everlasting fire ... separate me from the goats ... consigned to the fierce flames ... " etc, etc.

Happy enough with metaphor here I trust?

Vic.