Searching for God in Classical Music
Sat, Sep 24 2011, 4:54PM
#2
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
[ ...] Although if you are like me, you may also find that you dislike a lot of Roman Catholic liturgical music for the very reason that it tends to supplant your knowledge of God with its tradition-orientated approach. [...]
I also suggest listening to late 16th and early 17th century Anglican music for a taste of true spirituality.
And Tallis and Byrd, those Roman Catholic recusants, where do they fit in, LR44?
Vic
Mon, Sep 26 2011, 4:12PM
#3
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
Mon, Sep 26 2011, 4:13PM
#4
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
Well for those more interested in the music and saving money
rather than the theological debate, Amazon are currently selling the complete
works of Tallis for a bargain £17.99. I have to say that listening to them is
proving an extremely rewarding (musical) experience.
JKH
Mon, Sep 26 2011, 11:55PM
#5
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
It's not a theological debate, JKH, but it doesn't matter anyway.
The box of Tallis you mentioned is a reissue of the label Brilliant from the original Signum. The original sounded perfectly fine; the reissue, cheap as it is anything from that label, is of inferior quality, as far as the production values are concerned.
(I happened to have both, so I can tell the difference. However, it's almost impossible to find now the original Signum).
Parla
Tue, Sep 27 2011, 8:03AM
#6
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
Hi Parla,
I don't want to split hairs here but...
Is "It's not a theological debate, JKH" meant in the same vein as
"First of all, read, study, learn as much as you
can about Opera" (in another thread) is not an academic route?
Here's me thinking I was in a kind of theological debate. Never mind.
On a more serious note, are you saying that the Tallis collection under discussion is of poor recording quality? At this price I was tempted, but I don't want a poor recording. I thought about the Linn disc recommended in the new Gramophone list which would double my Tallis collection and would probably be enough, great as he is.
Mind you, there is also the consideration that, according to one of our correspondents above, his suspected secret allegiance to Rome might compromise the spiritual content somewhat.
Gosh, it's a complicated world!
Vic.
Tue, Sep 27 2011, 11:20AM
#7
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
Having declined the opportunity to participate in a theological debate, I’m not likely to be tempted by a debate about the nature of the debate, so I’ll leave it to you two!
Vic I’ve not heard the Signum originals, and so have no point of comparison with this reissue. However, the recordings sound perfectly good to me through my set-up and seem to capture a very real sense of the acoustics in the various recording venues. As far as other production values are concerned, would that some other issues came with a CD-Rom of comprehensive background notes, texts and – where appropriate – translations.
I’m certainly no Tallis expert, but thought that this bargain price would be a good way of exploring his music more widely than the occasional piece I already knew, and so it has proved.
JKH
Tue, Sep 27 2011, 11:52AM
#8
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
Thanks for that JKH. I have sent for the Linn disc now so if I am tempted beyond that I will send for the full set.
You are obviously a wiser and perhaps kinder person than I, as I keep an eye open to see if bait has been taken. It usually is, and at some length, and takes some decoding - but is all good fun, and meant in good spirit! Ooops, must be careful with that word.
Vic.
Tue, Sep 27 2011, 6:44PM
#9
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
My pleasure, Vic. I daresay that Tallis isn’t going to zoom
to the top of my personal musical tree, and I doubt I’ll ever be looking around
for alternative recordings in the same manner I do with most other music.
However, it’s a cheap enough experiment. You must let us know how you get on
with the Linn disc.
Flattered though I am by your kind words (I may have them
framed), I’m sure your tolerance levels are significantly higher than mine!
And yes, all is in the friendliest possible spirit – if people
fall out over music, then something’s gone seriously awry.
JKH
Wed, Sep 28 2011, 12:09AM
#10
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
Some clarifications, Vic and JKH:
For me it is not a theological debate, because I stick to provide a reply to the original question of this topic. I never meant to convince or much more to convert anybody. I think in good faith (what a word, Vic), I tried to reach a possible convergence of our views on how we perceive and how we "name" what we find in our listening experience.
As for the Tallis CD box: I never said that the recording is "poor". I just claimed that the label "Brilliant" is well-known for its cheap (recycled) reissues. The total production is much inferior compared to the original one. However, since it is almost impossible to find the original or you might have to pay an exorbitant amount (as a collectible), I guess you have to accept what is "available". For his arguably greatest work (Spem in allium), you may always go for the one in "Coro" label with the Sixteen. Marvelous recording and great recording values.
(It's intriguing how two "non-believers" talk, exchange views on recordings and, eventually, enjoy the music of such...outward "divinity". 10 discs of utter glorification of the "irrational"and non-existing "One", in mostly a capella form, requires quite a strength and one has to resort to some kind of conventions and mental compromises, I guess, since the texts are integral part of the works, while the music supports, in any way, what is sung).
Anyway, good listening to both of you,
Parla
Wed, Sep 28 2011, 8:26AM
#11
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
Parla,
I am still not clear what you mean by "the total production is much inferior to the original one". Do you mean sound quality here, or merely packaging, notes etc? I can live with tatty packaging, but would find ten hours of great music poorly recorded too frustrating. (I know it's only 17.99, but still...)
I agree with you about Spem in Alium. I have the Tallis Scholars' 1985 disc and eagerly await delivery of the much-praised Magnificat version from Linn Records. My love of music of this period has blossomed since the wonderful Simon Russell-Beale "Sacred Music" series on BBC4, especially perhaps, Victoria and Palestrina.
On the rest of your post, I wish that you were able to accept that the appreciation and love of religiously inspired art is possible without belief. The music itself is enough and this constant attempt to harness it as evidence is utterly unconvincing - to this correspondent at least.
Vic.
Wed, Sep 28 2011, 12:58PM
#12
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
Very quickly, Vic, about the "production values", etc.: The recording itself is O.K., since the original was of the greatest possible value. Of course, the rest of the production (notes, packaging, etc.) is poor indeed. The difficult and hidden part is the inferior quality of the material used of the actual CDs, which may end up to a less durable and resilient product, in the long run. (How long the CDs may last, how good can they sound after repeated listening, etc.).
As for the rest, I am very glad, even after any possible convention (or compromise), you may enjoy such music. However, I warn you it's a kind of "monkey" business,...but you are a man of strong convictions, after all.
Parla
Wed, Sep 28 2011, 1:50PM
#13
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
Parla,
Thanks for the clarification on "quality". As I only play the disc once (to rip it to hard drive for digital streaming) durability is not an issue for me now. On the other hand, even when I did play CDs I never noticed any deterioration.
On your final sentence, I am afraid I do not understand what you mean. Sorry.
Vic.
Wed, Sep 28 2011, 2:03PM
#14
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
Vic, take it from me the packaging of the Tallis set is faultless - and no tattier in quality from any number of boxed sets I (and no doubt you) own. The modern trend is for the individual discs to be contained within cardboard slip cases, which I really don’t mind, and in some ways prefer to the jewel-case container for multiple disc sets. On my desk at the moment, waiting to be re-shelved, are boxes of the RCA Previn Vaughan Williams Symphonies, Bertini’s EMI Mahler Symphonies and Klemperer’s EMI Beethoven Symphonies. There is absolutely no perceptible difference in quality between these and the Tallis. As for the physical longevity of the CDs, I have absolutely no reason to suspect that they won’t be as long-lasting as any one of the other thousands of CDs I’ve purchased over the last three decades, including ones from the most obscure and cheap labels with less than ideal packaging. And how repeated listening might affect how good they sound is beyond me, I’m afraid.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, I’m not a non-believer, but am in complete agreement with Vic that the appreciation of the beauty of ‘religious’ music can be, and is, experienced equally by those with no particular faith as those with one – whatever it may be.
JKH
Wed, Sep 28 2011, 3:27PM
#15
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
As you (both) like it! I just happen to have both versions on Signum and Brilliant, while I play them, as my whole collection, exclusively on my high-end equipment (Krell, Classe Audio, etc.), which can reveal any difference or deterioration on repeated listening.
As for the "last sentence", Vic, I just said I recognize (and I am very happy) the music itself can perform this "magic" (another risky word) to make us listen, even only on account of its beauty, making us ignore other inextricably linked parts of the work. However, I found myself having great difficulties and a sense of guilt, whenever I have to accept to listen to a ridiculous (and often irrational, absurd, offensive, etc.) text in a wonderful, gorgeous or magnificent music (see some popular songs, Lieder, Opera and so on). I guess our strong convictions are enough to make it work.
Parla
Sounds a bit crazy to me. You don't "search for" God in classical music, you FIND him through the Gospel of Jesus Christ as proclaimed on the pages of the New Testament.
Having found him and acknowledged him as Lord and King, you suddenly discover that all that "ancient" music out there really makes a profound statement about life. Although if you are like me, you may also find that you dislike a lot of Roman Catholic liturgical music for the very reason that it tends to supplant your knowledge of God with its tradition-orientated approach.
The most spiritual music is still, for the sake of the words if not always the music, Handel's "Messiah", which is a superb interpretation of the message of the whole Bible (probably Charles Jennens was responsible for that, not Handel). I also suggest listening to late 16th and early 17th century Anglican music for a taste of true spirituality. But the results will depend on the approach of the performers.
LR44