Searching for God in Classical Music
Wed, Sep 28 2011, 11:05PM
#2
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
I think we had already reached a sort of consensus sometime ago, Vic, with metaphor/beauty. Your "interpretation" of my "enigmatic prose" is somehow O.K. with me. The important fact is for me that we may admit that we find something "common" in our listening experience, no matter how we perceive and name it. Anyhow, even the fact that we admit we have a debate in good spirit (or faith), it's already a common thread.
"Paradise Lost" is a magnificent symphonic poem by one of the major Portuguese composers of 20th century, Freitas Franco. His actual work has been translated in English as "Artificial Paradise". It exists in a recording on Naxos label.
Good "hunting" (it's worth finding and purchasing it).
Parla
Thu, Sep 29 2011, 11:51PM
#3
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
Shouldn't this read 'Searching for Parla in Classical Music'?
Fri, Sep 30 2011, 12:20AM
#4
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
No, Richyboy, it shouldn't and it doesn't. You are wrong (as ever, I'm afraid).
Thanks for the "honour", anyway.
(I hope you may search music, someday, in life). (And Life is short, they say).
Parla
Fri, Sep 30 2011, 8:01AM
#5
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
Parla, If I may distract you from your exchange with Richypike (soon to be deleted, no doubt) can I draw your attention to your advice above, re Freitas Branco.
I found the Naxos disc you recommend but the write up says:
"His tone poem After a
reading of Guerra Junqueiro was inspired by Richard Strauss, whose
opulent orchestrations it echoes. Artificial Paradises, an eerie
piece inspired by de Quincy’s Confessions of an Opium Eater, is
regarded as Freitas Branco’s masterpiece par excellence."
So not John Milton or Paradise Lost after all.
I might still send for it, however, on your recommendation, if only out of curiosity.
Thanks anyway.
Vic.
Fri, Sep 30 2011, 3:03PM
#6
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
You don't "distract" me at all. It's highly unfortunate that there are people who claim they listen to Classical music and can so easily and brutally disgrace these forums (and themselves). It's such a pity (and waste).
As for your point on our Portuguese "great". Despite I bought the said CD, I never managed to explore it, since as an avid collector, I order and purchase...a lot! I have read, years ago, in a very reliable book that the "absolute" masterpiece of Freitas Branco was called - in free translation - "Paradise Lost". It was not clear through the reference at the text that it was "inspired" by Milton's work, but does it really matter that much? It is a Symphonic Poem (an abstract work), not an Opera, after all. The important fact is that we may have access to one of the very few "masterworks" of 20th century Portuguese music.
You may tell me first how it "sounds" to you. (I don't know when I will find the time to "explore" it).
Thanks, Vic,
Parla
Sat, Oct 1 2011, 8:29AM
#7
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
My pleasure, Vic. I daresay that Tallis isn’t going to zoom
to the top of my personal musical tree, and I doubt I’ll ever be looking around
for alternative recordings in the same manner I do with most other music.
However, it’s a cheap enough experiment. You must let us know how you get on
with the Linn disc.
JKH
The Magnificat/Philip Cave Thomas Tallis disc from Linn arrived yesterday and I have to post that I was blown away by the experience! The Tallis Scholars' 1985 version is good, this one is stunning. The range from music for 40 voices to a 4 voice mass setting provides variety ; the sensitivity of voice to text seemed particularly poignant to me, and I found the whole thing very moving indeed. I expect the complete work set to arrive today and after this disc I can't wait to explore further.
I must also mention the recorded sound quality, always important to me. I know from experience that anything with Philip Hobbs in the sound engineer's seat is going to be good, this one is exceptional. Goodness knows what the Studio Master 24bit download would have sounded like! I'm tempted to get that now!
This was a wise recommendation on Gramophone's best buy list. I suggest that if you only want one disc of music from this period in your collection, this is the one to go for. My guess is that after hearing it, almost anyone would want more of this glorious kind of music. Just wonderful.
Vic.
Sat, Oct 1 2011, 8:59AM
#8
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
This warrants a separate post, and in a way is on-topic for this thread - loath as I am to give ammunition to those who need to read more into this field than warranted.
I love religious music, confirmed atheist though I be. This might come from nostalgia for the Latin mass setting of my younger life. When a practising Catholic I would select what was called High Mass every Sunday for the music and singing - hypnotic, mystical, beautiful.
Some years ago I tried to track down this music, unsuccessfully. Later my mother moved to Gloucester in the parish of, I think, Downham Abbey and befriended the then organist. He made a tape for me of what he called the Tridentine Mass, even then rarely performed/celebrated. That was the mass of my childhood. The tape was of very poor quality, and I now have nothing to play it on anyway.
It occurs to me than someone here might know if there is a recording of that glorious music, once heard the world over, now following changes in religious fashion, almost lost to the world.
I would very much appreciate help with this search, inspired by my recent interest in Renaissance church music. Can anyone help?
Vic.
Sat, Oct 1 2011, 1:23PM
#9
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
It's really intriguing, Vic. You love religious music as a declared atheist, while, as a believer (in the unknown one), I'm not that excited about it, in any period (much more in Renaissance or early Baroque). My favourite is the Chamber/Instrumental (see my thread on that) and quite a few orchestral music, where I see mostly the "object" of the search of this thread.
As for your search of this got away Mass, I'm afraid, despite my collection and knowledge, at the moment, I am not in a position to help. However, I'll search and we'll see...
Good luck and enjoy "religious" music,
Parla
Sun, Oct 2 2011, 8:04AM
#10
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
Can I confirm that there is nothing whatsoever inferior about the Thomas Tallis Complete Works set from Brilliant Classics, referred to above? After receiving, ripping and sampling the discs, I echo JKH's praise for this set, and can only think Parla's comments about inferior quality refer only to card as opposed to plastic holders.
The performances from Chapelle du Roi are excellent, the recorded sound quality is impressive, the information (admittedly on CD Rom rather than paper) is very comprehensive indeed.
Dipping into these works (organised chronologically: Disc 1, Music for Henry VIII; Disc 3, Music for Queen Mary; Disc 6, Music for a Reformed Church, etc.) proved fascinating and certainly more than of academic interest, to me at least. A developing genius, desperately sensitive to the need to match piety and worship to changing political/religious fashion in an age where your life might have depended on how it was interpreted. Art and conscience on a knife edge. Great stuff. A wonderful discovery which I am sure is going to provide an intriguing musical journey. A great find thanks to Gramophone Forum posters.
This is a quality product and all in all amazing value at £17.99 for 10 CDs!
Mon, Oct 3 2011, 12:17AM
#11
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
I really don't want to "mar" the picture of your satisfaction with the Tallis box, but, in market's terms, is not a quality product at all; it's a "bargain" product with all the connotations this term may entail (You get what you pay and so on).
Brilliant, as a label of mostly "recycled" recordings of expensive ones, provides the "best" in the "bargain" field. For the completists, it is the label which may give a lot of answers. Lately, it "recycled" the complete work of Frescobaldi in 15 CDs at a very "attractive" price (not that attractive in terms of what they have produced). If you are interested, you may visit their website and you will find plenty of items you may find interesting. By the way, the label "recycle" even their own products: among them, I saw the Tallis box, in a new package, at the price of 23.99! So, no wonder why the old one is 17.99.
If you wish to try something more interesting in terms of the total product, try two Boxes of the very prestigious French label Ricercar, namely the "Reformation and Count-reformation" and very recently "The Flemish Polyphony". The first one is available in U.K., the second not yet, but you can order it from Amazon.fr. or Fnac.com. They consist of 8 CDs of high quality standards in terms of the material used, plus a big book of more than 200 pages, brilliantly printed, all packaged in marvellous boxes. By all means, the price is far above the 17.99 (in Europe it goes around 55-65 Euros), but they are worth any penny.
Finally, Archiv very recently issued a box of 10 CDs with most of the works of Victoria (including quite a few "firsts"), in the usual very high standards of the German label. The price is good, but not at all at the "bargain" level.
So, good exploration, Vic.
Parla
Mon, Oct 3 2011, 8:02AM
#12
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
I really don't want to "mar" the picture of your satisfaction with the Tallis box, but, in market's terms, is not a quality product at all; it's a "bargain" product with all the connotations this term may entail (You get what you pay and so on).
Brilliant, as a label of mostly "recycled" recordings of expensive ones
Parla
No wonder you provoke so much passion sometimes Parla!
I struggle to understand where you are coming from sometimes. I know it might not be wise to analyse your posts too literally, but really, what are you saying here?
"It (the Tallis Complete Works from Brilliant Classics) is not a quality product because it is a bargain"?!!!
Just what are the negative connotations of a bargain?
The packaging/artwork is good, the recording and sound quality is very good indeed, the performances are impressive, the notes are very comprehensive.
Please, please define what you mean by "not a quality product at all".
Vic.
Mon, Oct 3 2011, 10:59AM
#13
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
O.K., Vic. If you don't get it, I have to spit it out : Cheap material(s) leading to the limited longevity of the product. It's a common well kept secret in the production line of the different labels in manufacturing CDs. You never wondered why SACDs are more expensive and so far they do not dare to "recycle" them or why Mahler's cycle with Tilson-Thomas is so expensive? (The Solti's "Ring" in the reworked SACD form by Esoteric label had been sold from $800 to 1000!).
In any case, in my previous post, I gave you enough examples of why a product from such a label is not a quality one and I urged you to try some others to see the huge difference (which in comparison to what you pay is not bad at all). In any case, don't you feel anything strange or suspicious when Brilliant "recycles" even its own products, at higher prices (the Tallis Box: 17.99 the old one versus 23.99 the new one)?
Anyhow, I have already said, if you are happy with the product, you may check the catalogue of the label in question and find more items of interest, always at very competitive prices (by virtue of its "bargain" credo). I don't have anything against the label. It's very useful for completists (lately they issued the Liadov's complete piano works, Rodrigo's complete songs and so on), but I cannot say it's a viable competitive label compared to quite a few others which truly strive for excellence in every field of the production line.
Again, sorry for inciting any passionate reaction, but I felt I have to reveal certain things I know as a seasoned collector.
Parla
Mon, Oct 3 2011, 12:14PM
#14
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
An addition, Vic, which may enlighten you on what's going on in the recording production business: Friends in the production line of CDs just brought to my attention what a major, reliable and quite traditional label did in order to sell well...
Decca just today released two new boxes of "recycled" material of the late but so great Joan Sutherland: one is the reissue of her first major recital, called "The Art of The Prima Donna", in a "Deluxe" Edition of 3 CDs, at the price of 15.99, the other is the first collection of the "Complete Decca Studio Recitals" (which includes "The Art of Prima Donna" as well), in a massive box of 23 CDs at the very friendly price of 55 .99 (something like 2,43 per disc; for Decca standards it is a true "bargain", if you consider the rarities and "Les Introuvables" you can find there in).
I know, Vic, you may not interested (at all) in late Joan's recording output, but I mentioned this example simply to show you I have nothing against Brilliant and the Tallis box, but we have to know what we purchase.
Parla
Mon, Oct 3 2011, 12:31PM
#15
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
Parla,
You say that in a previous post you gave enough examples of why a product from such a label is not a quality one.
No you didn't. That's why I had to ask you to be specific.
Now you have been specific:
Because cheap materials lead to the limited longevity of the product.
It might be naive of me but I compared one of the Brilliant discs with the full-priced Linn Tallis disc and can detect no physical difference. Also, I have never noticed any deterioration in any CD I have ever bought, neither do I see how deterioration could occur given that there is no physical contact involved in playing them. (I assume careful handling throughout.)
Nor do I see anything suspicious in labels recycling their catalogue. They all do it don't they?
In your second paragraph you ask me to see the "huge difference" (presumably between full-price and budget labels). If the only specific detail you can give me is on the quality of the materials used (which affects longevity), what particular "huge difference" are you asking me to see? Please be specific here. What matters to me is sound quality and performance quality.
You have been accused in a now-deleted post, by a presumably now former forum contributor of speaking through, well, not your mouth. I look forward to clear and unambiguous details to confound this assessment of your expertise in this, and other, matters.
Vic.
Thanks, JKH. I have just ordered the Tallis set and will give myself yet another (retirement) project and explore this man's genius further, although I doubt that I will ever hear the whole output. At this price, it's almost rude not to.
Parla, I do enjoy the challenge of your enigmatic prose! You will correct me if I interpret incorrectly, but I think you are saying that we both have sufficient empathy with and for great music (your "conviction") not to be put off by any accompanying text, however we might interpret that text. If so, I agree. You have achieved your desire for consensus, on this at least.
I am, at the moment, reading Milton's "Paradise Lost" so I am in textual analysis mode. I am wowed by the sheer power of Milton's imagery, language and verse!
However, I have been shocked by Milton's portrayal of Eve, and can't help compare it with the depiction of Shakespeare's women, despite the writers' shared contemporary social attitudes. (You will guess where this is going!) What a contrast between Shakespeare's Renaissance humanism and Milton's poisonous religiously inspired misogyny. Still, it would have made a great opera.
Vic.