Social influence of opera
Wed, May 26 2010, 4:43PM
#2
RE: Social influence of opera
All of this is only my opinion, and therefore worth no more or less than anyone else's, for that reason from hereon I will (dun mo bheal agus nil me ag caint aris) shut up.
dubrob,
alright, I apologise for the sniping tone of my previous post. I had you down for some humourless pedant ready to tick off contributors whose English did not meet your required standard. Maybe native speakers tend to use their own language with less care, but, as with "the apex of aural beauty" I get the gist of what they're trying to say, and let it pass.
regards
scouserob (I wish I'd used that for my forum name now!)
Wed, May 26 2010, 4:51PM
#3
RE: Social influence of opera
I'm curious as to why you think opera might be more 'truthful' than other genres of music, let alone other art forms - eg, novels, poetry, paintings, theatre, photography.
In any case, your post begs the question - is opera becoming less popular?
Ah, indeed. By this I meant that much of the criticism of it is unfounded, and further tries to suppress the humanity presented in opera. Many see some of the events mentioned in the first post to be unrealistic because of their intensely dramatic nature. The truth about opera, and indeed all fine arts, is that they present timeless ideas about humanity in general. The composer, librettist, poet, or painter reaches into the closet, drags out the skeletons, and makes them dance. And I think that's why many people disfavor it over popular entertainment.
And while the popularity may not be declining in numbers, keep in mind that numbers don't tell everything. While attendance may be increasing in These States, it is still very much a small crowd. Perhaps this is less true in the UK, but in the US it is almost impossible to find someone who enjoys opera and has considerable knowledge about it.
I guess opera really has never been popular, and perchance I interpreted my recent observations as a decline because in the past few decades the reasons for its unpopularity seem to have shifted. It used to be due to economic or financial factors that most did not attend; it was confined to the aristocracy, and later to the upper business class. Speaking of opera in the US, the capital factor for slight popularity is the populist influences in the past century, especially in the past 30 years.
It is important to note that populism can be compared, with remarkable success, to philistinism.
Wed, May 26 2010, 5:14PM
#4
RE: Social influence of opera
"opera indubitably achieves the apex of aural beauty'. Firstly, this an opinion, not an objective statement grounded in fact, therefore at best its truth is open to the large possibility of doubt. Something indubitable that is full of doubt is a perfect contradiction.
An opinion yes, but presented as truth to reinforce my argument. It's a contradiction I'll admit, but a harmless one.
Since beauty does not have an apex, clearly I meant that it is the most beautiful genre of all human art. I stated it as such because I didn't foresee that people would analyze each word.
Remember that almost every noun is an abstract concept. Were I to say, "I just saw a tree," would you criticize me for saying that it is impossible to observe "tree."
To say, "I just saw a type of tree" or "I just saw a larch" would be more correct, but I'd rather leave it to people to interpret it as simple statement, and not an epistemological contradiction of human experience.
Moreover, none of this has anything to do about opera, other than show that its patrons can be needlessly pedantic.
Wed, May 26 2010, 5:35PM
#5
RE: Social influence of opera
If I seem pedantic I apologise it's the last thing I want, but I think caring about an appropriate use of language and pedantry are two very different things. One of the reasons for the unpopularity of opera is, in my opinion, the absolutely ridiculous nature of their libretti. You need to read them to understand what is happening, but so often when I do, I wish I hadn't, and wonder how a composer allowed his music to be saddled with such rubbish, especially when he or she wrote it him or herself, Wagner for example. I totally admire your desire to use words that are not so frequently used, my only problem is that a lot of people in a given situation have a large vocabulary of appropriate words to choose from, but so often choose something that is wholly inappropriate, ths is what I don't get, and I don't see it as pedantry, without these ideas of relevance language as a system of meaning will just fall apart. I just saw a tree is a perfectly clear and understandable sentence.
Wed, May 26 2010, 6:35PM
#6
RE: Social influence of opera
At last, a thread with a bit of fire in it!
Speaking of humour in music and Shostakovich, I have to reference the other thread that got you a bit aerated, Dunrob, the one on tuba concertos.
Of all composers, Shostakovich may be most to blame for typecasting the tuba, perhaps also the trombone, often using them to provide raspberry-like comments on stage action or the course of the music itself. Even in a work as apocalyptic as the 4th symphony there's a first movement passage where the tuba galumphs into action and gets the piccolos poking fun at the work's opening statement.
SpiderJon, you brought up something that also had me puzzled. Opera's decline? I've heard other comments to that effect, at the same time hearing of sell-out attendances at cinematic viewings of the Met's Saturday afternoon performances and vigorous dvd sales. Does anybody have stats, one way or another?
How about some more of Molly's soliloquy, Spider? I want to see just how sensitive this forum's censorship engine is.
Wed, May 26 2010, 7:03PM
#7
RE: Social influence of opera
Except for society's upper-crust, there often isn't much influence.
Some efforts are being made in North America, such as education for kids (Not sure how successful that's been) and Saturday Met opera feeds to movie theaters.
For the latter on the west coast, a 10 a.m. curtain-rise can be challenging for opera lovers and the curious.
Wed, May 26 2010, 7:38PM
#8
RE: Social influence of opera
For the latter on the west coast, a 10 a.m. curtain-rise can be challenging for opera lovers and the curious.
I thought they were time-delayed? Vancouver gets a Saturday afternoon relay on the radio at least.
Wed, May 26 2010, 8:46PM
#9
RE: Social influence of opera
For the latter on the west coast, a 10 a.m. curtain-rise can be challenging for opera lovers and the curious.
I thought they were time-delayed? Vancouver gets a Saturday afternoon relay on the radio at least.
No delay for live HD. 1 p.m. ET, 10 a.m. PT.
Seattle's KING-FM is live also.
Wed, May 26 2010, 10:24PM
#10
RE: Social influence of opera
Spiderjon, speaking of comedy, what do you think of the last movement of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony? Do you think he was having a laugh? I'm not talking about The Ode to Joy, I mean the marching band music. I've never understood or liked what he was doing here, especially coming after the other three glorious movements. Your opinion would be sncerely welcome, because maybe I'm missing something very obvious.
Hmm... I can see what you mean about "marching band music", but whilst it's a bit strident, it doesn't strike me as excessively out-of-place as a way of rounding things off.
I would, however, have to say that I am far from seriously knowledgeable about the ninth, and wouldn't pretend to have any insight into what Beethoven may have intended, other, perhaps, than bringing what was a very long process of composition - and what is a very long composition - to a relatively swift and definite end.
Thu, May 27 2010, 4:54PM
#11
RE: Social influence of opera
jtutus1,
I've come to this debate rather late, during which it has deviated into some interesting avenues. But to return to the start - yes, there are several operas which raise things not really suitable for children - or for that matter, the tender-hearted. Of course opera is not unique here. Theatre, from the ancient Greek playwrights to Shakespeare and modern times has often presented disturbing themes. And many theatres today advise that particular plays are not suitable for young people. The depiction of violence onstage is one area that suggests especial caution. So, yes, I would support a similar system for opera, perhaps excluding Mozart in toto (the kids would probabkly enjoy Don Giovanni's descent into hell, no worse than panto when you think about it). But Otello strangling Desdemona, no.
Sat, Jul 3 2010, 10:31PM
#12
RE: Social influence of opera
Wagner's Ring: Lust for power, cruelty, incest, treachery,murder, mayhem of all kinds.
Also for Tristan&Isolde: Adultery.
Salome: Necrophilia, a stepfather attracted to his stepdaughter,lust.
Elektra: Ax murders .
Jenufa: Infanticide,jealousy, young woman pregnant with illegitimate child.
The Fiery Angel by Prokofiev: Demonic possession,demonology, black magic, an exorcism gone horribly out of control.
Manon: A wayward girl arrested and deported n morals charges.
Der Rosenkavalier: Adultery between the wife of an Austrian field marshall and a 17 year boy. Cross dressing.
Spiderjon, speaking of comedy, what do you think of the last movement of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony? Do you think he was having a laugh? I'm not talking about The Ode to Joy, I mean the marching band music. I've never understood or liked what he was doing here, especially coming after the other three glorious movements. Your opinion would be sncerely welcome, because maybe I'm missing something very obvious.