Symphony - A Travesty
Wed, Nov 30 2011, 10:52PM
#2
RE: Symphony - A Travesty
Correction: it was Elder, not Beale, who said 'many people dismiss a lot of the romantic English music written in the first part of the 20th century, with the unfortunate label 'cow-pat' music'.
He went on to explain that the symphony was not about sheep, shepherds and Arcadia, but about the Somme, 'the landscape of death'.
Exactly.
My point was, that when listening to the symphony, I hear peace and calm. When listening to a Shostakovich symphony - say the #7 - I hear the opposite.
Which I guess just proves that the effect of any work of art is 50% about the creator's intention and 50% to do with the listener's/viewer's interpretation.
Thu, Dec 1 2011, 7:58AM
#3
RE: Symphony - A Travesty
Which I guess just proves that the effect of any work of art is 50% about the creator's intention and 50% to do with the listener's/viewer's interpretation.
Wow! If ever there was a statement that could (and should) kick off a debate, that's it! Can't wait. My money's on a 1,000+ worder from Parla to kick us off. I'm going to pre-empt his assertion with claim that it's not 50/50, it's 49/51 (you choose which way).
Vic.
Thu, Dec 1 2011, 8:48AM
#4
RE: Symphony - A Travesty
Wow! If ever there was a statement that could (and should) kick off a debate, that's it! Can't wait. My money's on a 1,000+ worder from Parla to kick us off. I'm going to pre-empt his assertion with claim that it's not 50/50, it's 49/51 (you choose which way).
Although with music and other performaing arts, it's of course more complex: whereas with a painting, say, there's a direct relationship between artist and viewer, with music you have creator/composer)-> interpreter/performer(s) -> listener/viewer, and with a recording you can throw producer/engineer and even audio equipment designer(s) into the mix, too...
Oh dear, think I may have opened up a
Thu, Dec 1 2011, 9:21AM
#5
RE: Symphony - A Travesty
Fortunately lesser composers who can't get their thoughts into music without some help will sometimes offer us a program to help the simplier listener to understand their music. Does that help!!!!
Thu, Dec 1 2011, 9:39AM
#6
RE: Symphony - A Travesty
Do Beethoven, Mozart, Brahms or Bach need the other 50% (of the listener) to be called great and their music unrivalled and unparalleled. I trust they are already there, regardless of any relationship between artist and listener, interpreter, producer (or engineer or audio equipment)...
Parla
Thu, Dec 1 2011, 12:06PM
#7
RE: Symphony - A Travesty
With the Vaughn Williams #3, I perceive a situation after death. Sadness, but relief from pain and suffering. With the Shostakovich #7, I perceive a very unpleasant situation leading up to death.
As 'Symphony' also pointed out, there's been a debate since the 19th century, whether the symphony need say anything.
For me, it's about finding music I like. Because there's always someone out there trying to muddy the waters, we need people like Elder to help us to clarify matters. In that sense, 'Symphony' has worked for me.
Thu, Dec 1 2011, 12:31PM
#8
RE: Symphony - A Travesty
Spadger - by the way - I'm relying on you to watch and post on 'God's Composer', 8pm fri02dec , BBC Four. There should be plenty of gurning and simpering from Simon.
Thu, Dec 1 2011, 2:22PM
#9
RE: Symphony - A Travesty
Do Beethoven, Mozart, Brahms or Bach need the other 50% (of the listener) to be called great and their music unrivalled and unparalleled. I trust they are already there, regardless of any relationship between artist and listener, interpreter, producer (or engineer or audio equipment)...
No, but their greatness and the quality of their music are more 'in the eye of the beholder' judgements, and surely the effect of a performance of even the greatest composer's finest music on a listener is affected by the other factors I mentioned above?
Thu, Dec 1 2011, 2:22PM
#10
RE: Symphony - A Travesty
Do Beethoven, Mozart, Brahms or Bach need the other 50% (of the listener) to be called great and their music unrivalled and unparalleled.
Parla
No, Parla, their creations alone make their music what it is. But Andrew was talking of the "effect" created by their music - which requires listeners. If the listener brings nothing then the effect is nothing. Looked at in that way, I'd say 50/50 is about the right way of looking at it.
But I'm open to persuasion on the matter. I hope this is one of the rare occasions where you might be too. But I'm not holding my breath.
Vic.
Thu, Dec 1 2011, 3:06PM
#11
RE: Symphony - A Travesty
So, we have to distinguish the two questions involved and not to put them together, in the same basket.
If we all (Andrew and Vic, in this case) agree that the music of the "Greats" is great independently of the "listeners" judgement and other factor's involvement, then, we have one question answered: their Music is Great 100%.
If, for the "effect" to be more...effective, we need the listeners and the other "factors", then the "effect" question is answered 100% by them (listener and factors), since a very bad equipment alone can destroy the "effect" 100%, a "bad" interpreter likewise and an ignorant or unaware listener cannot get it, anyway.
So, it's not a superficial 50/50, but rather two 100% on two different, though linked, issues. That's why Composers rest in History of Music and get all the credit, while the other "factors" of the "effect", including the "poor" listeners, fade away in the everyday oblivion.
If that is the case, we are in accord. No problem at all.
Parla (I'm not holding my breath either).
Thu, Dec 1 2011, 4:24PM
#12
RE: Symphony - A Travesty
If we all (Andrew and Vic, in this case) agree that the music of the "Greats" is great independently of the "listeners" judgement and other factor's involvement, then, we have one question answered: their Music is Great 100%
Yes, but not everyone would agree the Greats are great, or indeed which Greats are great and which just interesting or maybe even mediocre. It's a matter of taste.
If, for the "effect" to be
more...effective, we need the listeners and the other "factors", then
the "effect" question is answered 100% by them (listener and factors),
since a very bad equipment alone can destroy the "effect" 100%, a "bad"
interpreter likewise and an ignorant or unaware listener cannot get it,
anyway.
more...effective, we need the listeners and the other "factors", then
the "effect" question is answered 100% by them (listener and factors),
since a very bad equipment alone can destroy the "effect" 100%, a "bad"
interpreter likewise and an ignorant or unaware listener cannot get it,
anyway.
What I was suggesting was that just as a picture displayed optimally allows one better to appreciate the greatness (or otherwise) of the artist than the same picture displayed in a poorly-lit, overheated or overcold gallery, where the viewer may be unable, or disinclined to linger and appreciate it more, so music recorded or reproduced badly gives the listener less opportunity or inclination to assess what he or she feels to be its greatness (or shortcomings).
So, it's not a superficial 50/50, but rather two 100% on
two different, though linked, issues
two different, though linked, issues
That's just semantics, surely? Half of 2x100% is 100%, but it's also 50% of the whole 200%.
Thu, Dec 1 2011, 6:20PM
#13
RE: Symphony - A Travesty
Yes, but not everyone would agree the Greats are great, or indeed which Greats are great and which just interesting or maybe even mediocre. It's a matter of taste.
It might be a matter of taste that a person doesn't think the 'greats are great' but it doesn't make the 'greats' less great. Was it Brain Wilson of the Beach Boys who said after a performance of Beethoven's 5th symphony 'I've just realised I'm a musical midget'. Well done Brian Wilson. BUT it doesn't make Beethoven greater because Brian Wilson realised it. It might make a difference to Brian Wilsons viewpoint, his taste may have changed, but Beethoven's greatness remains the same.
Thu, Dec 1 2011, 9:37PM
#14
RE: Symphony - A Travesty
Yes, but not everyone would agree the Greats are great, or indeed which Greats are great and which just interesting or maybe even mediocre. It's a matter of taste.
Stick around Andrew and you'll soon be told which Greats are great and which are mediocre - I got told pretty early on in my forum experience. And don't even mention taste..... apparently you shouldn't have any if it don't equal others 'taste'.
Thu, Dec 1 2011, 11:00PM
#15
RE: Symphony - A Travesty
So, Andrew, we don't have an agreement, after all. So, let's try further:
Yes and but do not go together, because, eventually, the "but" will lead to a negation. As long as you agreed that composers do not need any "outside" assistance to be recognised as Greats, then, we cannot put now a new conditionality : the (in)famous and very unstable and subjective factor of taste. If "taste" is the key factor, then, there is no greatness, because there is no value (subjective value cannot build or support any Artform; it can only contribute to its popularity). So, the question is whether the Great composers are great based on their valuable work, (regardless of if all people will get it or not), or, eventually, the Great composers are going to be recognised as great, if people "like" them (and their work). So, Andrew, you have to choose. You cannot have them both.
The "effect" issue is well understood. What you avoid to answer, Andrew, is that the "effect" cannot affect the greatness of music of a Beethoven or Mozart. It can enhance or minimize the actual listening experience. However, the "means" (the effect) should not be confused with the "ends" (the Music). And, exactly, for that reason is not a matter of semantics only, but of substance: we are talking about two different matters, so its not "2x100%" or "50% of the whole 200%". We are talking about two different 100% and, for me, as a man who loves Music above the "effect", the one 100% is enough and the one who counts as far as the value of the composers and their work.
I don't know if you can get me now, Andrew. Can we have an accord as for the value of the Music, based on your first agreement or does the "taste" factor, eventually, prevail?
Parla
Correction: it was Elder, not Beale, who said 'many people dismiss a lot of the romantic English music written in the first part of the 20th century, with the unfortunate label 'cow-pat' music'.
He went on to explain that the symphony was not about sheep, shepherds and Arcadia, but about the Somme, 'the landscape of death'.
My point was, that when listening to the symphony, I hear peace and calm. When listening to a Shostakovich symphony - say the #7 - I hear the opposite.
'After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music'.
Aldous Huxley brainyquote.com