Symphony - A Travesty
Sat, Dec 3 2011, 12:29PM
#2
RE:
I only wish that we who live across the pond from the UK had such programs about serious music so we can at least join in the discussion. No wonder such a small percentage here even like any great music. Count your blessings.
Sat, Dec 3 2011, 5:56PM
#3
RE: Symphony - A Travesty
Andrew, again "yes, but". Make up your mind! The truth is either "yes" or "no". What you are trying to pursue is a negation through "but", so that it would not be that offensive and it can mildly pass as an argument.
As for the "substance", what you are claiming, more than less, is that as long as we have a more "definitive" junk album is "better" (?) than a classical music recording, because in the latter the composer is not present to "dictate" his views on the work. Therefore, the outcome is a less "important" (?) music than the rock album. I think you may agree that this is not the best or more convincing syllogism of yours on the matter.
We are talking about Music, Andrew, not about definitive recordings of whatever goes. We are trying to identify what is great in Music, on a more factual basis, rather than anything relative or not to it. The score is the "book", which, by reading it (like in literature), can tell you the only truth about the matter, regardless of the performance. Shakespeare is great by the first reading, even without any performance. So, without a score (or a proper one, like in the case of the rock album and not only), you can imagine what kind of music (literature) we are dealing with.
Parla
Sat, Dec 3 2011, 6:29PM
#4
RE: RE:
a more definitive record of how the composer intended the work to sound than any classical disc recorded years, decades or even centuries after the composer's life.
If you have so definitive a record, who needs a score?
There are lots of written examples of 'Rock Music', they are usually along the lines of play these three chords, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, coda (back to original three chords). Optional words (or make them up) oooh yer baby I love you (repeat endlessly). Are you 'jobbing' for The Rolling Stone Andrew.
Sat, Dec 3 2011, 6:42PM
#5
RE: Symphony - A Travesty
Andrew, again "yes, but". Make up your mind! The truth is either "yes" or "no".
I think it was meant to be a qualified 'Yes', but as you will not accept any qualification to your 'truth', it was wasted.
As for the "substance", what you are claiming, more than less, is that as long as we have a more "definitive" junk album is "better" (?) than a classical music recording ...
So now we have progressed from " classical music is better than other music" to other music is "junk". A somewhat arrogant view in my opinion.
We are trying to identify what is great in Music, on a more factual basis, rather than anything relative or not to it.
Actually this thread was about a television programme, its quality (or lack of) and whether or not it did justice to the story of the symphony.
If anyone wonders why some people find classical music difficult to 'get in to', or why in some circles it is regarded as 'elitist' and 'out of touch' ... go back to post 1 and start reading.
Sat, Dec 3 2011, 6:54PM
#6
RE: Symphony - A Travesty
Some people find getting out of bed in the morning hard work, we are not here to make life easy for them. A bit of effort and the rewards are there, if you want them.
Sat, Dec 3 2011, 10:31PM
#7
RE: Symphony - A Travesty
Exactly! Just a bit of effort! Even out of curiosity!
ChrisW, are you appointed as the "proxy" of Andrew, because my post initially addressed to him, as a reply to his last post. Anyway, read carefully these two posts (Andrew's and mine) and you may find out that my reply answers all his points only. So, any speculation or interpretation from your part might be far from the letter and the spirit of the text itself... and, in a way, irrelevant.
Parla
Sun, Dec 4 2011, 1:38AM
#8
RE: Symphony - A Travesty
Fortunately lesser composers who can't get their thoughts into music without some help will sometimes offer us a program to help the simpler listener to understand their music.
Like Beethoven in his most boring symphony?
Sun, Dec 4 2011, 1:58AM
#9
RE: Symphony - A Travesty
Sorry, an inadvertent, now deleted, repeat of the above.
Sun, Dec 4 2011, 8:16AM
#10
RE: Symphony - A Travesty
(It was a joke)
Sun, Dec 4 2011, 8:46AM
#11
RE: Symphony - A Travesty
As for the "substance", what you are claiming, more than less, is that as long as we have a more "definitive" junk album is "better" (?) than a classical music recording ... We are talking about Music, Andrew, not about definitive recordings of whatever goes. We are trying to identify what is great in Music, on a more factual basis, rather than anything relative or not to it. The score is the "book", which, by reading it (like in literature), can tell you the only truth about the matter, regardless of the performance.
Parla
There's undoubtedly some truth here, but what sterile and academic condescension it comes wrapped up in, as usual.
Last night I watched Alan Yentob's "Imagine" programme on the making of "Bridge Over Troubled Water" and thought of this thread. I was deeply moved for all kinds of reasons that have nothing to do with ranking greatness, relative "taste", or speculations on what would be listened to in a hundred years. What breathtaking arrogance to disregard all musical creative effort that is not in the classical realm as a kind of "definitive junk".
There's a kind of theme being revealed here, what with finding god in classical music, appreciation requiring the kind of effort and education only those who worship at the altar of the classical canon are privy to, to the exclusion of the thick unwashed who find in other genres of music - enjoyment.
Paul Simon, Bob Dylan, and many more are great musicians. It's a different kind of greatness that's all. Your need to rank greatness says more about you than the music, in my opinion.
Vic.
Sun, Dec 4 2011, 9:07AM
#12
RE: Symphony - A Travesty
No Vic, you just include shallow and sentimental in your idea of greatness, that's all.
Sun, Dec 4 2011, 9:41AM
#13
RE: Symphony - A Travesty
No Vic, you just include shallow and sentimental in your idea of greatness, that's all.
I think my post covers this judgement.
Does your forum name refer to you or just your pronouncements, by the way?
Vic.
Sun, Dec 4 2011, 9:55AM
#14
RE: Symphony - A Travesty
Andrew, again "yes, but". Make up your mind! The truth is either "yes" or "no".
Must be great to live in a world that simple.
As for the "substance", what you are
claiming, more than less, is that as long as we have a more "definitive"
junk album is "better" (?) than a classical music recording, because in
the latter the composer is not present to "dictate" his views on the
work. Therefore, the outcome is a less "important" (?) music than the
rock album. I think you may agree that this is not the best or more
convincing syllogism of yours on the matter.
claiming, more than less, is that as long as we have a more "definitive"
junk album is "better" (?) than a classical music recording, because in
the latter the composer is not present to "dictate" his views on the
work. Therefore, the outcome is a less "important" (?) music than the
rock album. I think you may agree that this is not the best or more
convincing syllogism of yours on the matter.
As far as I can struggle to get any meaning from those last three sentences, no, I'm not claiming anything of the kind, nor would I agree with your interpretation (oh, the irony!), or you judgement of the quality of the argument you think I am making, which is unfortunately not the argument I am making at all.
We are talking about
Music, Andrew, not about definitive recordings of whatever goes.
Music, Andrew, not about definitive recordings of whatever goes.
No, we're not.
We are
trying to identify what is great in Music, on a more factual basis
trying to identify what is great in Music, on a more factual basis
No, you are. I view such a pursuit as futile and pointless, given the choice between it and enjoying as wide a variety of music as possible with an open mind.
The score is the "book",
which, by reading it (like in literature), can tell you the only truth
about the matter, regardless of the performance.
which, by reading it (like in literature), can tell you the only truth
about the matter, regardless of the performance.
So no great music – by your judgement – was created before notation was established, nor can be created in the absence of a means of writing it as a score? Bang goes most of folk and world music, then...
Shakespeare is great by the first reading, even without any
performance.
performance.
Which version of Shakespeare? The original one he wrote, or the ones he amended after seeing the works performed, just as composers tend to rework their compositions once they hear them 'in action', and get a sense of what works and what doesn't?
So, without a score (or a proper one, like in the case of
the rock album and not only), you can imagine what kind of music
(literature) we are dealing with.
the rock album and not only), you can imagine what kind of music
(literature) we are dealing with.
Another impenetrable sentence, I fear – what exactly does 'ike in the case of
the rock album and not only' mean? – but if I get the drift of your non-definitive, open-to-interpretation post, you are dismissing any form of oral or folk art, reducing the performer to a mere automaton programmed by a punch-card written in the form of the mighty 'score' (which is presumably carried around in something like this
and only revealed to the sound of heavenly trumpets, although I am not sure who scores those, and so whether they are truly Great or not)
In fact, why even bother with musicians any more? Scan the score, progam self-playing instruments from that, and you're done – definitive greatness forever.
I can get my Mac to read a Shakespeare play using a text to speech facility, but a very dull experience it is. Poetry, plays, music – all need interpreters to bring them to life, just as a storyteller in the oral tradition can hold an audience spellbound, while someone with minimal talent, or mere technical competence, reading from the greatest book (or playing from the Greatest Score), can bore one rigid.
Sun, Dec 4 2011, 3:50PM
#15
RE: Symphony - A Travesty
Exactly! Just a bit of effort! Even out of curiosity!
ChrisW, are you appointed as the "proxy" of Andrew, because my post initially addressed to him, as a reply to his last post. Anyway, read carefully these two posts (Andrew's and mine) and you may find out that my reply answers all his points only. So, any speculation or interpretation from your part might be far from the letter and the spirit of the text itself... and, in a way, irrelevant.
Parla,
I do apologise, I must have missed the post that declared that this internet forum thread had become a private conversation.
Enough.
written score and, if there is any, probably the lead singer and some
of the rock musicians cannot even read it!
Yes, but then the creator(s) of that rock album is/are more likely to have been sitting at the desk with the producer/engineer when the recording was made than was Beethoven or Mozart – even with the benefit of the DeLorean and the Mr Fusion.
So one could argue that the rock album is a more definitive record of how the composer intended the work to sound than any classical disc recorded years, decades or even centuries after the composer's life.
If you have so definitive a record, who needs a score?
Audio Editor, Gramophone