Ten Perfect Orchestral Recordings...

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Hugh Farquhar
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RE: Ten Perfect Orchestral Recordings...

troyen1 wrote:

[I some time wonder how much of the Bernstein you actually know

Somehow I cannot see Mahler promoting any of his symphonies by insisting that they are firmly in the symphonic canon.

I sometimes wonder how much of Mahler you actually know. If Mahler had wanted his symphonies placing outside of the symphonic canon and viewed as demonstration recordings for your latest hifi, he wouldn't have called them symphonies. Mahler knew all about the symphonic canon and chose the word symphony with respect.

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troyen1
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RE: Ten Perfect Orchestral Recordings...

Hugh Farquhar wrote:
troyen1 wrote:

[I some time wonder how much of the Bernstein you actually know

Somehow I cannot see Mahler promoting any of his symphonies by insisting that they are firmly in the symphonic canon.

I sometimes wonder how much of Mahler you actually know. If Mahler had wanted his symphonies placing outside of the symphonic canon and viewed as demonstration recordings for your latest hifi, he wouldn't have called them symphonies. Mahler knew all about the symphonic canon and chose the word symphony with respect.

Clearly more than you as the tradition in Mahler can be traced through Walter and Klemperer, two opposites with nothing in common with Haitink.

I am certain, out there, is a Haitink Mahler recording worthy of a library inclusion.

Hugh Farquhar
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RE: Ten Perfect Orchestral Recordings...

troyen1 wrote:

Clearly more than you as the tradition in Mahler can be traced through Walter and Klemperer, two opposites with nothing in common with Haitink.

So Haitink is not part of a tradition which goes back to two conductors who were poles apart !!! Well that is one heck of a tradition. I think you need to think a little more about what you are writing and stop just repeating phrases out of books.
....are you in fact Parla !!!

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parla
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RE: Ten Perfect Orchestral Recordings...

That would be the craziest scenario, Hugh. Troyen is unique in his style, prose and his views, no matter what; quite personal and to me very genuine.

To please you, somehow, I believe Haitink is quite a conductor for Mahler, but he seems a bit outdated, after all these new recordings with conductors like Chailly, Tilson-Thomas, Stenz, Zinman, all in spectacular recordings. DG's Bernstein was also very impressively recorded, providing all this extra feeling Mahler is needed. DG's few Karajan's recordings too.

However, because I have seen Haitink live in Berlin (once in Mahler), he was too flat and too balanced. Maybe, it was his age or the transformation of BPO under Rattle, but none of his concerts managed to fly. They were excellent but not brilliant performances.

Parla

naupilus
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RE: Ten Perfect Orchestral Recordings...

troyen1 wrote:

Somehow I cannot see Mahler promoting any of his symphonies by insisting that they are firmly in the symphonic canon.

I have to agree with troyen1 on this - there is nothing anywhere to indicate that Mahler was ever trying to present himself as part of the canon.

As for the meirts of Haitink and Bernstein I have to say I would always hold on to Bernstein's Mahler 6 and 9 in the later DG cycle. The Sixth really is a brutal view and the ninth contains some extraordinary moments, such as the whole third movement which Bernstein takes at such a lick that one fears for the orchestra, who totter on the edge of collapse. I also have soft spot for the fourth, even thought features a boy treble, totally outside the composer's instructions I think. But somehow for this listens it works and not as effect - there is something intagible in the way the score is presented that makes the choice of voice seems totally right. A curiosity no doubt, but a notable one.

Haitink. I have similar concerns about Jansons in Mahler. They seem to be very literal presentations - supremely realised and perfectly suitable for Saturday morning listening. But that is the problem - if the desire is to place them in the canon, then they fail because in the attempt too many edges are smoothed, too many ambiguities spelt out. On another post I wrote about Lebrecht's 'Why Mahler?' and one of the better themes Lebrecht explores is how Mahler created music soaked at point in irony and juxatposition between the banal and the unique, between the sauve and the naive. I am sure Haitink is aimn for it, but for me he nevers touches a nerve. My problem I know - he doe a better job of conducting the score than I ever could.

I am suprised Gielen's Mahler never gets more of a mention - I think that in total the Hanssler/Gielen cycle is pretty fantastic.

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troyen1
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RE: Ten Perfect Orchestral Recordings...

Hugh Farquhar wrote:
troyen1 wrote:

Clearly more than you as the tradition in Mahler can be traced through Walter and Klemperer, two opposites with nothing in common with Haitink.

So Haitink is not part of a tradition which goes back to two conductors who were poles apart !!! Well that is one heck of a tradition. I think you need to think a little more about what you are writing and stop just repeating phrases out of books. ....are you in fact Parla !!!

Oh dear, has the medication worn off already as you are coming close to being objectionable in your insults.

Parla, indeed.

I'm surprised that you didn't throw the estimable Dutch tradition in Mahler back at me represented at its finest in Mengelberg and, of course, Haitink can only be a part of that tradition giving his performances a kind of veracity.

But you didn't which just goes to show that, as per usual, you haven't a clue about anything very much when your medication runs out or your brain (brain?) is fuddled with booze.

Go listen and learn like the rest of us, well, most of us.

Incidentally, as far as books are concerned I only read fiction. I learn more that way!

Hugh Farquhar
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RE: Ten Perfect Orchestral Recordings...

Reading only 'fiction' is fine but you need to stop putting it forward as 'fact' in your posts. Klemperer and Walter' in their conducting styles, in their view of Mahler's symphonies, are part of no school or tradition. They view Mahler's symphonies completely differently. It is lazy to add a degree of authenticity to them because they knew and worked with Mahler. The same way it would be wrong to sell Karajan's Strauss on the fact that he knew Strauss. The quality and the beauty of the performance are all that matters, Haitink, in your view may fall short, but judge him on what he does and not on who he knew.

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RE: Ten Perfect Orchestral Recordings...

Hugh Farquhar wrote:
Reading only 'fiction' is fine but you need to stop putting it forward as 'fact' in your posts. Klemperer and Walter' in their conducting styles, in their view of Mahler's symphonies, are part of no school or tradition. They view Mahler's symphonies completely differently. It is lazy to add a degree of authenticity to them because they knew and worked with Mahler. The same way it would be wrong to sell Karajan's Strauss on the fact that he knew Strauss. The quality and the beauty of the performance are all that matters, Haitink, in your view may fall short, but judge him on what he does and not on who he knew.

A sober post, well done.

Is that a tentative reference to the Dutch Mahler tradition you failed to pull me up on?

I am not alone in thinking that there is an authenticity in the performances of Walter and Klemperer because they knew the composer.

Even so, their performances as evidenced on disc, offer a view that is convincing and satisfying, although both admitted to not understanding some of his music and, therefore, did not perform it.

Not lazy at all.

mussessein
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RE: Ten Perfect Orchestral Recordings...

This is off the subject of the initial post, but I notice that Mahler seems to be taking over the commentary so I can't resist. After several years of obsessing over reviews, buying, re-buying, and listening, I've come up with the following Mahler play list that works for me:

Symphony no. 1 -- Horenstein/LSO

Symphony no. 2 -- Bruno Walter/NY Phil

Symphony no. 3 -- Bernstein/NY Phil

Symphony no. 4 -- Kubelik/Bav. Radio Symphony

Symphony no. 5 -- Gielen/SWR

Symphony no. 6 -- Bernstein/VPO

Symphony no. 7 -- Gielen again

Symphony no. 8 -- Solti/Chicago

Symphony no. 9 -- Gielen yet again

I don't know how many of them I'd nominate as "perfect" -- although I can't imagine anyone doing a better job with #2 than Walter. Horenstein's #1 has occasional slight ensemble problems, but I think he finds all the earth and water and sunlight (and fire and brimstone!) that Mahler put into the score. It's also the first Mahler recording I ever heard, so I'm probably incapable of objectivity about it. Gielen manages to persuade me that the 7th is worth listening to, which is an achievement all on its own.

parla
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RE: Ten Perfect Orchestral Recordings...

Gielen is truly underrated in Mahler. His 5th is unexpectedly good. However, German conductors very rarely shine easily.

Anyway, if you wish a discovery, try Gielen. You won't be disappointed, but I don't hold my breath.

Parla

mussessein
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RE: Ten Perfect Orchestral Recordings...

I replaced my Zander Mahler 5 and Haitink Mahler 9 with Gielen in both, and haven't looked back. Tempos seem just right to me, and I like his lack of sentimentality.

troyen1
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RE: Ten Perfect Orchestral Recordings...

parla wrote:

Gielen is truly underrated in Mahler. His 5th is unexpectedly good. However, German conductors very rarely shine easily.

Anyway, if you wish a discovery, try Gielen. You won't be disappointed, but I don't hold my breath.

Parla

What German conductors very rarely shine easily?

Furtwangler, Jochum, Klemperer, Thielemann, Wand, Bohm, Kempe...?

parla
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RE: Ten Perfect Orchestral Recordings...

Nowadays, Troyen, nowadays or even recently. Even Thielemann, comparatively speaking, struggles to shine, particularly outside the German-speaking countries. I have lived in Berlin for some years recently and I visit Germany on a good basis. In Berlin, Thielemann was a mere visitor and I don't recall if he conducted the BPO but for a handful of times (between 2004-2009).

Parla

tagalie
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RE: Ten Perfect Orchestral Recordings...

As much as I love Kempe, I'm underwhelmed by him in Mahler. Ditto with HvonK. I don't quite get all the fuss about Herbie's recordings of the 9th.

c hris johnson
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RE: Ten Perfect Orchestral Recordings...

Now that Thielemann is settled in Dresden it will be interesting to see how he develops. I thought the Beethoven symphonies he recorded in Vienna were very fine, but they did not overwhelm me like the greatest performances do.

I completely agree about Gielen being undervalued.  I heard him conduct a couple of times in London and was very impressed.  I should investigate his Mahler, especially the elusive 7th.   

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