The Jubilee concert shows how Classical is being sidelined in the UK
Fri, Jun 8 2012, 12:17PM
#2
RE: The Jubilee concert
Andrew Everard-but most of the country are not subscribed to Sky!
Points taken about public service/funded broadcasters, but the fact remains that some 10m households now do have Sky, and many more have access to the basic Sky package services via other platforms.
I'm not saying this excuses the failings you identify in other areas of broadcast – I'm merely pointing out that classical music isn't forgotten by some UK TV broadcasters, and that Sky is actually highlighting those failings you see elsewhere.
Fri, Jun 8 2012, 12:37PM
#3
RE: The end is 'nigh'bours
I'm not convinced that destroying the BBC would improve the situation.
I wouldn't want to see it destroyed, it could even charge for it's services as Sky do, but publically funding via the license fee has to go. AND as we are on the subject of the Jubilee, The Royal Family should also look at funding itself using other means than the tax payer. I'm not saying both of these institiutions don't do some good work, but why should people who are living in hardship fund them. If it is good and is needed there will be a market for it. Charge for your services but give people the option of 'no thank you'. It's called civillisation.
Fri, Jun 8 2012, 2:47PM
#4
RE: The end is 'nigh'bours
AND as we are on the subject of the Jubilee, The Royal Family should also look at funding itself using other means than the tax payer.
Last time I looked, the revenue the Treasury makes from royal land-holdings was about five times the amount it spends on the royals, and then there's the value of tourism to the country, which would arguably be impacted if overseas visitors couldn't see the various ceremonies and royal palaces.
You only have to look at the overseas TV audiences for the most recent wedding last year, and this year's Diamond Jubilee celebrations, to see that there is an interest in all this pageantry (though not sure what they would have made of some of the BBC's coverage, which seemed to be more about 'presenters' than what was going on).
Not by any means a royalist – actually pretty diffident either way – but if it's a matter of economics then it would seem we are better of with than without, unless you're also proposing seizing the land and property the family holds.
Fri, Jun 8 2012, 3:57PM
#5
RE: The end is 'nigh'bours
Last time I looked, the revenue the Treasury makes from royal land-holdings was about five times the amount it spends on the royals. Not by any means a royalist – actually pretty diffident either way – but if it's a matter of economics then it would seem we are better of with than without, unless you're also proposing seizing the land and property the family holds.
They could keep their heads I suppose.
If you own land you pay tax. We don't however all get the 'tax rebate' the royals get.
Vive la republic, however I did enjoy the Jubilee party I went to last week, god bless her.
Sat, Jun 9 2012, 12:18PM
#6
RE: The end is 'nigh'bours
As bad as they are television -wise, if the BBC was scrapped there would be NO classical on free tv. The UK is becoming a cultureless dumbed down wasteland where tv media is concerned.And in a completely tv-dominated age this is bad for classical music. As I said before all the commercial channels like ITV etc never show any. It is therefore unfortunate the BBC are showing so little Classical-yet one of their remits is they are supposed to be enlightening the public and educating them. Instead most of their output nowadays does the exact opposite-pander totally to the mass popular culture of 'I like what I know' so the public never know any different. Look I have nothing against 'popular entertainment' (which I too watch) but the problem is 'popular entertainment' seems to be 95% of the output!!! Is it is not possible to show ONE concerto sometimes on tv or even a 3 minute Chopin piece if they are going to show hours of DIY SOS and endless reruns of Britains Got no talent (significant a dog won it)!!
We have a double-edged sword. The left wing education system now dumbs down music in school via GCSE and younger age children (who learn hiphop garbage etc), and the tv shows populist drivel. So we have whole generations now who never have been exposed to classical. It is truly dire. This has partly happened because of the post-marxist anti-elitist way of thinking in education over the last 30 years that all music is equal ie. hip hop and trance is as good as Classical.A very dangerous way of thinking and one that overturns the 1950's and 60's correct way of thinking(in my view) that pop culture is not on the same level-which it is not.Call me elitist-but it is not.
Back to the Jubilee concert-we should all be very concerned that an event of this great importance had almost no real classical in it. It means that classical is now not representing our wider British culture at all. The equivalent of Myra Hess's legendary war concerts or Walton's Orb and Sceptre now would be Cheyl Cole or Gary Barlow..
Sat, Jun 9 2012, 12:25PM
#7
RE: You will pay or else.
I couldn't agree more, except that the BBC is not really 'free' TV is it. If you have ever moved house what is the first thing you get through your door, a demand for payment from the TV Licensing, the BBC storm troopers want their money. That left wing marxist brainwashing doesn't come cheap.
Sat, Jun 9 2012, 1:07PM
#8
RE: You will pay or else.
I am always surprized to read criticisms of music teaching in schools. At least there is some: there wasn't any at all when I was at grammar school in the 50s unless one counts the weekly singsong (no part singing or Kodaly method for us) and that was only for a select few. We were made to stand up in pairs, the music master played the first chord of "Rule Britannia" and each pair had to sing "rule" in tune. Those who couldn't were allowed to do their homework. There was also hymn singing each morning, if one felt so inclined, and this was excellent training for rugby club singing a few years later.
Sat, Jun 9 2012, 1:38PM
#9
RE: The Jubilee concert
Jeff - just lost a post because of this dreaded 64 character problem!
Anyway Jeff I understand your frustrations, but you might take some comfort from the fact that you're not alone as a music teacher in your concerns. I taught English for 20 plus years as my main subject, and Music as my second.
Now, in one school I taught in for 11 years, and only a secondary church school, not a private school, the Head of Music and his second and myself managed reasonably well. HOD, being a brass band player, took the wind band, the 2nd who was a trained singer and did amateur opera the choir, and myself the orchestra. We thankfully had enough youngsters learning string instruments to manage a small orchestra (viola players a bit thin on the ground mind!)
Of course in the music curriculum we used a mixture of pop, jazz and classical, as we did in our arrangements for the various forces. I even had a percussion group going, and the kids were so keen that we rehearsed for an hour after school on Fridays, doing crazy graphic and improvised pieces with loads of percussion and electronic keyboards. But we even performed at one school concert.
One time I took the plunge and got a party booking at the old Free Trade Hall in Manchester to hear the Halle. We managed a mini-bus of about 15 for that concert - the main piece on the programme was Saint-Seans' Carnival of the Animals. They really enjoyed it.
Jeff a deputy head I worked with once said that the youngsters will buy into what we as adults give value to. I know we could argue all day about that one, but I think it's a tremendously positive approach. Apologies for teaching egg-sucking, but as you know it's all about inspiring and motivating youngsters, and how we present it to them.
That said I share your concerns about junk culture. I've always liked some popular forms but find myself becoming increasingly alienated from this mindless 'gangsta' culture. A shocking story in a national paper recently about the kid in East London who referred to his gun as his 'baby'. It really is worrying...
Mark
Sun, Jun 10 2012, 10:34AM
#10
RE: The Jubilee concert
Partsong- Unfortunately fact is many state schools have totally rejected the idea of educating kids about classical music.This is a fact we all need to wake up to. It really is that bad. At a large music teachers conference a few years ago, there was a vote on if classical should be a main part of the music curriculum and most of these teachers voted against it being so!! We now have the bizarre scenario of music teachers in schools who were themselves brilliantly classically educated ONLY teaching children music in popular styles eg. rap and hip hop. So these teachers had the great benefit of being educated about classical music-then deny this benefit to the pupils they teach!!!! Indeed I recently worked in an urban London school where the main music teacher had studied MA composition at a very prestigious University department with a well known composer, but only taught her pupils pop styles eg hip hop and clearly purposefully avoided any mention of classical. I find this ridiculous and insulting to the pupils' intelligence.If she had only studied hip hop she would'nt have got the MA in composition.
I don't want to get into politics too much, but I do think behind this is the post-marxist view that we should pander to what music pupils already 'like' (believe me I have heard state school educators blatantly say this) rather than educating them about what they don't know. This is pathetic-kids are hardly likely to hear Richard Strauss while walking in their local shopping centre or while watching the 99% of junk tv.
This is also partly why the Jubilee concert was so full of cheap junk music. Because the wider public are not being educated in or being even made aware of the subtleties of classical. Millions of children are being let down in my view.
Sun, Jun 10 2012, 4:04PM
#11
RE: The curriculum etc...
Hi Jeff - thanks for your detailed response. You are probably closer to what's going on now as I taught music back in the 90's. I did hear a number of teachers expressing the view that the curriculum was being dumbed or watered down too much. The problem - and I am in agreement with you I think on this - is that too many teachers have swallowed the book, so that all that is ever talked about in staffrooms is exams, performance, league tables, latest initiatives, OFSTED inspections, quality control and the rest of the official discourse to do with standards. To be honest, I found it depressing. There was precious little talk in staffrooms about anything culturally interesting - music, theatre, film, fiction, art etc....
In even found that to be the case when I mentored trainee English teachers for three years from MMU. All very intelligent and dedicated and conscientious, but straight from university it is as if their love and passion for the subject become substituted by this whole discourse of standards. I used to joke that the management might as well as issue a glossary sheet of terms and that all talk between staff must refer to the terms on the sheet!
The example you give above of the talented teacher composer is a case in point. It is one thing to embrace popular culture but another to be totally body-snatched by it. Whatever happened Jeff to the days of John Paynter and the York project's experimental music approach in schools?
And, as you also say, shocking that music teachers voted against classical. That again really is worrying...
Regards
Mark
Tue, Jun 12 2012, 7:01PM
#12
RE: The curriculum etc...
Thanks Mark-it really is that bad. It is much worse than many think.Many school music resources are now purely hip hop/ethnic music based.
There seems to be a definite dumbing down of all 'high' culture both in education and in the media. I wonder if it is linked to the whole left wing anti-elitist doctrine which has been the case since Blair. There seems to be no wish to educate the public now (as there was in the 1960's)-just to pander to their downmarket taste which is often based on ignorance. I think there is too much apathy in the Classical world about this issue and wish performers and composers would speak out more. Because if they don't actively speak out there will be no substantial audience for classical music in the future. Even the Proms,a classical festival, is going downmarket and submitting to the whims of the BBC ratings desire by having more musicals-based proms with John Wilson etc.
I am depressed that many young pupils I teach have NEVER HEARD classical in school or from their parents. It is an appalling situation and Ofsted should be ashamed of letting this happen. They are supposed to educate children not make them ignorant.
Tue, Jun 12 2012, 7:31PM
#13
RE: The curriculum
Hi again Jeff - we must be logged on at the same time!
Thinking again about what you've been saying over the last couple of days, I know I mentioned this discourse about standards, but I forgot to mention what you have been getting at in your posts, which is this; the other big discourse I noticed in schools is 'political correctness' which is killing us. Maybe it is this which is leading to 'you have to work with the kids' own culture approach'. Together the two big agendas of standards/raising attainment, and political correctness are stifling the life out of teachers. Nobody wants to be creative, imaginative or experiment, or dare I say it, brave any more. It's easier to work with populist culture totally.
(I know my view might be a bit extreme, but it is not political. I have been reading Foucault's 'The Will to Knowledge' since there were references to him on another thread, so thinking in terms of discourses and which are prevalent in schools).
Myself, going back to teaching! AAAAAAAAAAH! Took a break two years ago to set up in business with my wife. Now needs dictate that I am going to have to do some supply as well. Not particularly looking forward to it, but as I say needs must. Have just signed with two agencies this last week.
Anyway, on the subject of this all-prevalent discourse about standards, I don't know if you have heard the joke about the OFSTED inspector who told the youngsters after a lesson how impressed he was with their eager attitudes - all hands going up all the time. Gosh! He had never seen as many hands go up. And fantastic answers! 'Seasy', said one of the kids.'Miss told us to put our right hands up if we knew the answers, and our left hands up if we didn't'!
Oh well...
PS I often used to choose music which had a strong visual or literary programme. Again, I know it's teaching egg-sucking, but the usual like Mussorgsky's Pictures, Holst's The Planets, 1812 overture etc...etc....
It is time for the cultural fightback to begin!
Best wishes
Mark
PPS - just added. Maybe the post-Blair anti-elitist culture idea you mentioned is also part of this political correctness.
Sat, Jun 30 2012, 3:15PM
#14
RE: The curriculum
Thankyou for all your comments. There is far too much apathy by classical musicians over the shocking fact that broadcasters are purposefully ignoring Classical music in the UK (as the appalling Jubilee concert featuring Barlow's inane drivel song proved). As I originally said can you imagine George V allowing such cheap junk to be performed in celebration of such a historic anniversary. A disgrace from the same country that produced Britten and Walton. And the situation is made far worse by the fact that that many music teachers in schools are indoctrinated by the whole PC garbage that all music is equal (which it clearly is not). Some teachers really do think that hip hop is as good as Richard Strauss. Music teachers are purposefully totally ignoring classical music in favour of pop junk, and our broadcasting channels are doing the same.There is as much chance of a classical concert on ITV or C4 as my becoming next King of Denmark. We are burying our heads in the sand to the stark reality that Classical music is thus being forcibly made by the far left wing in power (the English education system is still run by left wing multicultural-obsessed dogma) into a minority music.A pupil recently told me he was learning a song by Bruno Mars in school-and had never once heard anything classical in any music lesson ever!!
It is all part of the anti-intellectual anti-cultural broadcasting that now dominates our airwaves and indoctrinates our children-and their young parents- who now only know the likes of Justin Bieber.Beyonce and Rihanna. Many under 25's now have no experience of classical music whatsoever and most would not be able to name any living classical composers. Interesting that as technological communications have increased eg. iphones etc-cultural awareness has decreased! This is sowing the seeds for a totally cultureless UK in the future. NB: The eminent pianist John Lill last year gave a brilliant concert in Croydon and the hall was not even one quarter full.
Sat, Jun 30 2012, 6:22PM
#15
RE: The curriculum RE: The curriculum
Hi Mark, Hello Jeffyoung!
As I'm sure you've seen from posts on another (difficult) thread, I'm completely in agreement with what you both write. It is a matter for concern.
One thing you wrote Jeff makes me realise that this is not the whole story though. You wrote: "Many under 25's now have no experience of classical music whatsoever and most would not be able to name any living classical composers." This is my experience too: it is the latter part, not being able to name any living classical composers, that points to the other major problem for classical music. Contemporary classical music is too often now a closed book even for lovers of classical music, isn't it? The common experience of concert promoters, when even to add as a bonus a modern work to a 'conventional' programme almost guarantees a reduction in the audience, highlights the dangerous road leading to a 'museum' of classical music.
These two factors, education failures, and the seeming inability of contemporary composers to engage with the public, are not necessarily terminal, but are worrying.
Chris
I'm not convinced that destroying the BBC would improve the situation.
It's not just in classical music that the quality of TV has declined. However my parents rejected TV in the '70s due to the poor quality of what was available. When I moved into my first few houses in the'80s I chose not to spend valuable music money on a television as there seemed to be insufficient to justify having one.
However, Mrs P insisted on bringing one with her when she moved in.
P