The most annoying operatic character
Fri, Oct 26 2012, 3:48PM
There are many great operas and many intentionally despicable characters. But what of those who are meant to be worthy and good but actually fail to provoke our sympathy. The question springs to mind after listening to Szymanowski's King Roger this morning. A terrific piece but the Shepherd is just so pompous and grating that it makes one wonder why anyone would want to follow him.
Any other candidates?
Sat, Oct 27 2012, 5:12PM
#2
RE: The most annoying operatic character
I guess the "lack of response" might be attributed to the puzzlement of what character can be "annoying" if the music is superb (e.g. Mozart, Wagner), or at least highly entertaining (e.g. Rossini, Puccini). The funny thing is that in such Operas by the great composers of the genre, the "negative", boring, obnoxious etc. characters get some of the most wonderful or/and significant music.
On the contrary, when the music is really low, boring, flat etc., most of the characters are doomed to fail to convince or be at least interesting or simply pleasant.
Parla
Sat, Oct 27 2012, 6:45PM
#3
RE: The most annoying operatic character
Parla, You will have noticed that the original post does not mention music. I was referring to the character only. The one I mention - Szymanowski's shepherd - has glorious and radiant music but it is his character that annoys.
As for lack of responses, that seems to be a plague that effects 99.99% of posts of this forum. Apart from the jazz thread (a form of music no longer catered for in G) every other one is effectively moribund.
Peter, thanks for the suggestion. How about the fool in Wozzeck as an exacmple of another annoying character? Actually I don't think there is a fool in literature that is not annoying!
Sat, Oct 27 2012, 9:51PM
#4
RE: The most annoying operatic character
As for lack of responses, that seems to be a plague that effects 99.99% of posts of this forum. Apart from the jazz thread (a form of music no longer catered for in G) every other one is effectively moribund.
Bazza, I think the jazz thread, with its rapid descent into irrelevance, sub-playground argument and insult, amply illustrates why there is such little response generally on this forum and, in particular, to what I at least found an interesting post. I've been thinking about this most of the day - without much result, it has to be said. Stretching your terms to breaking point, I suppose Mrs Wotan is a bit of a bore when all's said and done, but there again I don't think we're actually intended to view her (or any of the inhabitants of Valhalla Close) in a sympathetic light in the first place.
Sat, Oct 27 2012, 10:43PM
#5
RE: The most annoying operatic character
BR, I read very well your introductory text and my post answers exactly that.
So, I repeat (and elaborate) that, when the music of the Opera involved is glorious, even the most "annoying", "unpleasant", "disturbing" character transcends to something "glorious or radiant", to use your words for Szymanowski's King Roger (very flattering for the case, but it's your call anyway).
To separate the character from the Opera itself and see him/her as a character of a play is a bit unfair and irrelevant, since the libretto (and the characters involved) has been created to be part of the whole thing called Opera (Theatre with Music, that makes all the difference). Otherwise, libretti would be performed as theatrical plays as well, if they could work as such.
Scarpia is a terrible figure to "enjoy" in the plot of Tosca, but, thanks to some extremely brilliant music for the case, Puccini transcends the character to something that is irrelevant whether is the most sinister, evil etc. person we will have to face in the Opera literature. However, the characters in Menotti's Consul suffer from a mediocre, flat, almost disturbing music, so that all of them may look (since they sound) "annoying" or "unpleasant".
As for the attraction to responses, you may see that, based on the subject, there is enough interest (Bruckner or Mahler or Sibelius Symphonies, the Requiem thread and many more). From time to time, we have some "updating" of old threads as well.
Parla
Sun, Oct 28 2012, 1:48AM
#6
RE: The most annoying operatic character
So because the shepherd has lovely music, his boring text becomes lovely as well? By extension, that's like saying a rotten libretto becomes great if the music it is set to is wonderful. I don't buy that.
JKH's post reflects the reality of this site since I posted this thread more accurately than your own statement. Perhaps the forum needs more light-hearted topics of this kind. :)
Sun, Oct 28 2012, 9:18AM
#7
RE: The most annoying operatic character
"Perhaps the forum needs more light-hearted topics of this kind."
In that spirit I propose the following 'annoying' operatic characters:
Iago, who spoils what could have been a perfect story of multi-racial married bliss.
Don Alfonso, for destroying the emotional lives of two fine young men and their fiancees
Alberich, for upsetting Wotan's plans and leading directly to 14 hours of conflict.
King Philip of Spain, for selfishly blocking a lovely relationship.
Finally, all those gods and goddesses that intervene (mainly but not exclusively in baroque operas) to send the action in unbelievably stupid directions including heroines turned into trees and heroes into fountains.
Chris
PS: Amongst my much loved operas are Verdi's Otello and Don Carlos, Mozart's Cosi fan Tutte, Wagner's Ring of the Nibelungs, Handel's Acis and Galatea. I can live without Richard Strauss's Daphne.
Sun, Oct 28 2012, 3:52PM
#8
RE: The most annoying operatic character
Iago, who spoils what could have been a perfect story of multi-racial married bliss.
Excellent! I am surprised in these enlightened times, no one has produced the work with a happy ending. :-D
Sun, Oct 28 2012, 4:28PM
#9
RE: The most annoying operatic character
Chris, all these characters you mentioned are the favourites of most Opera lovers, including me. They enjoy such wonderful, sometimes glorious, music that one forgets who they are and their "sins". King Philip has such magnificent parts in Don Carlos that I adore the character. Don Alfonso has such charming music to unfold each time he has to appear that he can only be charming. Alberich and Iago enjoy some of the monumental moments of Opera writing by two of the most important figures in the genre.
As for the Baroque Operas, then, stupidity is transcended to the utmost beauty thanks to music (see Handel's Alcina, for instance). It's utterly unfair to judge the characters, the plot and the libretti independently from the music and the whole context of the Opera itself.
So, BR, the text per se does not "become lovely", but it is transformed to something meaningful (or not) based on the music involved in the whole project called Opera. As for "rotten libretti", likewise, can be saved, when the music transcend them to something new. In light music, we have plenty of "stupid songs" which became huge and perennial hits (e.g. Che sera sera, Love me do). Likewise, Cosi fan tutte would be a terrible bore and an obsolete play for the theatre, but, for centuries now, it constitutes one of the most celebrated, beloved and significant Operas of all times.
Parla
Sun, Oct 28 2012, 7:46PM
#10
RE: The most annoying operatic character
PS: Amongst my much loved operas are Verdi's Otello and Don Carlos, Mozart's Cosi fan Tutte, Wagner's Ring of the Nibelungs, Handel's Acis and Galatea. I can live without Richard Strauss's Daphne.
Agreed on all except Acis, which I don't know. I've been slammed for calling Daphne, as a show, a good excuse for taking up your crossword puzzle. I agree with William Mann when he descibes it as "an enjoyable opera to listen to, rather more tedious to watch."
As for annoying opera characters, surely that depends as much on the performance and performer as the role itself. Ochs can be a good laugh or irritating boor depending on who's playing him. The Carreras Don Jose in the Met performance was so wimpy you wanted to get on stage and shake him. Langridge's Laca in Jenufa was like a musical Uriah Heep. And both Theseus and Hippolyta get right up my nose with their smart-arse comments during the rustics' play in Midsummer Night's Dream - but that's Shakespeare's fault not Britten's.
Sun, Oct 28 2012, 9:15PM
#11
RE: The most annoying operatic character
"rotten libretti", likewise, can be saved, when the music transcend them to something new.
A rotten libretto is a rotten libretto no matter what it is set to.
Sun, Oct 28 2012, 10:51PM
#12
RE: The most annoying operatic character
Of course, "a rotten libretto is a rotten libretto", if you wish to see it as an independent work of Art, as literature let's say, but it is not anything like that. Libretti were written for a specific purpose and they survived the test of time and judgement, because they were part of the whole artistic work.
If you wish to judge the libretti as separate artistic works, then, a very great portion of them, if not all, will not pass even the mediocrity test of fine literature or poetry. German speaking people confirm to me that Wagner's texts for his Gesamtwerke would constitute terrible reading, if they have to be publicised as a sort of literature works.
Parla
Mon, Oct 29 2012, 12:24AM
#13
RE: The most annoying operatic character
German speaking people confirm to me that Wagner's texts for his Gesamtwerke would constitute terrible reading, if they have to be publicised as a sort of literature works.
Parla
On of the prides of my book collection happens to be this exact thing: a beautiful first edition of Wagner's collective writings. So not only the critical essays with his pompous views on music and art and all the shit-slinging at Mendelssohn, but the libretti too, which are presented like Shakespearian plays.
Needless to say, it just sits in my book shelf being pretty. I adore Wagner, but I don't feel like spending an evening in the lazyboy by the fire reading "Rienzi".
Also, alliterations work well in opera dialogues, giving the texts an interesting extra thematic layer. But in written literature they tend to become pedantic after a only couple of paragraphs. And o man, did Wagner love those...
On the subject of most annoying operatic character:
Siegfried.
Assholic bully characters don't get more sympathetic when portrayed in theatres by scrawny middle aged guys who invariably end up chewing the scenery out of frustration over being upstaged by the lead soprano.
Mon, Oct 29 2012, 1:04AM
#14
RE: The most annoying operatic character
Of course, "a rotten libretto is a rotten libretto"...
Now you have accepted that, it is not such a great step to accept that great operas have annoying characters.
Judging from the responses above, it seems that most of Wagner's music-dramas do!
Mon, Oct 29 2012, 3:50PM
#15
RE: The most annoying operatic character
BR, you keep isolating segments of my posts to come to the desired conclusions of yours. This approach cannot work any sort of communication.
My post was very clear: "a rotten libretto is a rotten libretto, if you wish to see it as an independent work of Art...but it is not anything like that". In other words, I haven't seen so far any authority either in Classical Music or in Literature/Poetry to examine the libretti as independent works of Art. Secondly, the libretti don't work as such. Their "reason d'etre" and their justification lie in the music they serve.
Thanks to this transcending situation, the most boring or "annoying" texts can become not only pleasant but brilliant characterisation of the most common people and the most mundane situations. Take, for example, a part of one of the most successful, famous and beautiful Operas, like La Boheme. In the most famous and beloved Rodolfo's Aria "Che gelida manina!", we have a passage with this very "bright" text: "Chi son? Sono un poeta. Che cosa faccio? Scrivo. E come vivo? Vivo." By themselves these lines may constitute the most trivial, almost annoying lines. However, with the superbly expressive music of Puccini, every word takes a completely new emotional meaning, to such an extent that the text seems as the most poetic and beautiful thing you've ever heard.
So, for my perception of the Operatic work, anything (situations, characters etc.) may become annoying, if the music is getting weaker. Besides, bad performances can transform any "character" to an extremely annoying one: listen to a mediocre Norma or a less than adequate Siegmund. You may become very irritated.
Parla
A singular lack of response so far, so here is my offering. How about Freia in Rheingold? She hangs around on stage doing little apart from screaming for help occasionally, and her only value to the rest of the characters is her ability to grow apples. Surely one of the gods could have taken over this chore then the giants could have carried her off without anyone worrying!