The Vienna Philharmonic & their trumpeter

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50milliarden
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RE: The Vienna Philharmonic & their trumpeter

BazzaRiley wrote:

50milliarden wrote:
I find it hard to listen to the Carmina Burana without the constant realisation that [Carl Orff] was a fervent nazi...

Fervent? Just because he stayed in Germany?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2009/jan/02/classical-music-film-carmina...

And that's one of the more favorable biographies about this undeservedly popular composer.

BazzaRiley
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RE: The Vienna Philharmonic & their trumpeter

Not much there. The salient point is "Orff himself was never a paid-up Nazi."

Sidney Nuff
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RE: The Vienna Philharmonic & their trumpeter

You'll be hanging Shostakovich next for being a communist under Stalin. 

50milliarden
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RE: The Vienna Philharmonic & their trumpeter

Sidney Nuff wrote:
You'll be hanging Shostakovich next for being a communist under Stalin.

I can see where this is headed at - but we had a big discussion about Shostakovich and his propaganda works last month already. Suffices to say that he was a composer of a much bigger stature than Orff - and a much nicer person too. I can forgive him his ventures into soviet realism, as long as I don't have to listen to them.

parla
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RE: The Vienna Philharmonic & their trumpeter

It's very kind and generous of you, 50m, to forgive Dmitri, even in this way, but I trust he doesn't need your forgiveness anyway. Quite a few of us can listen to "his ventures into soviet realism" without any problem whatsoever. In the same vein, we may not care about the foolishness of some great composers to produce works serving very low and trivial issues, however served in perfect musical packages (some Baroque and Italian Operas etc.).

Finally, the fact that I may despise any well established performer for any reason, it does not make him/her a lesser one. It's only me the one who has the problem!

Parla

tjh212@yahoo.com
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RE: The Vienna Philharmonic & their trumpeter

One is free to reject an artist bassed on non artistic reasons. But be ready to reject more.

(I don't listen to X because Y likes X. But Y likes Z (not necessarily music related) too).

Also refer to Richard Osborne's article which appeared here recently -

"In any case, he used to say, if people are determined to believe something about you, they probably will, whatever evidence is adduced to the contrary."

Sidney Nuff
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RE: The Vienna Philharmonic & their trumpeter

I imagine homophobes would find Tchiakovsky and Britten uncomfortable listening, but can you really sense homosexuality in their works.

eyeresist
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RE: The Vienna Philharmonic & their trumpeter

33lp wrote:
But we can forgive all this because they are a good orchestra (which also manages to avoid EU law relating to the employment of women & non-white ethnic minorities, but that's OK too!).

I've seen a few asian faces in the VPO. Doubtless they had to be exceptional to get those jobs.

50milliarden wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2009/jan/02/classical-music-film-carmina-burana

There is no evidence in this article for Orff being a "fervent Nazi".

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Sidney Nuff
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RE: The Vienna Philharmonic & their trumpeter

eyeresist wrote:

33lp wrote:
But we can forgive all this because they are a good orchestra (which also manages to avoid EU law relating to the employment of women & non-white ethnic minorities, but that's OK too!).

I've seen a few asian faces in the VPO. Doubtless they had to be exceptional to get those jobs.

Come on, you can't criticise them for not having any black or asian faces in the orchestra and then criticise them FOR having black and asian faces in the orchestra. And come on, it is the VPO, everyone would have to be exceptionally good to get their job. 

DarkSkyMan
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RE: The Vienna Philharmonic & their trumpeter

I think the main problem with the Orchestra these days is the lack of women. There have been many letters about this including one in the Radio Times.

I am equally uncomfortable with Karajan's nazi membership as I am with some of Shostakovich's views, but you have to be careful. (though I have many recordings of both) See the film "Taking Sides" about Furtwangler - who is the real bully in the film?

What we do have to realise is the CM is a force for good. We have Mr Barenboim who seems to be the only person in the world who can get Israelis and Arabs to work together in harmony. Long may he prosper.

 

parla
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RE: The Vienna Philharmonic & their trumpeter

Let's not exaggerate, DSM. Barenboim's "project" is a superficial political achievement. Artistically, it's a sort of adventure, in the best possible case. Otherwise...let's not talk about it.

Parla

CARLOS PINHEIRO JR
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RE: The Vienna Philharmonic & their trumpeter

The question of lack of women in the VPO is real, since they currently show only eight female musicians in their ranks. However, the BPO is not much better - only 17 women in the roster of 128 musicians, or a meagre 13%, which is nothing to write home about - and I don't see anyone criticizing them for it. Admittedly, the VPO is even more misogynistic than its Berlin counterpart, but the latter orchestra also falls short of recommendable standards in this regard, as the numbers above reveal. The problem is that you wouldn't know that by reading the critics.   

Sidney Nuff
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RE: The Vienna Philharmonic & their trumpeter

This is turning into a Labour party conference. Let's make sure that all orchestras are at least 50% women, have positive discrimination until a 20% black and asian number is achieved. Have at least 5% disabled and a 20% gay, lesbian or transgender make up. Only then should musical ability be taken into account. You had it easy Shostakovich, you only had to deal with communist ideaology. We have the politically correct liberal middle class to deal with.

eyeresist
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RE: The Vienna Philharmonic & their trumpeter

Sidney Nuff wrote:
eyeresist wrote:
I've seen a few asian faces in the VPO. Doubtless they had to be exceptional to get those jobs.

Come on, you can't criticise them for not having any black or asian faces in the orchestra and then criticise them FOR having black and asian faces in the orchestra. And come on, it is the VPO, everyone would have to be exceptionally good to get their job.

Sorry, you misunderstood me - I'm not criticising the VPO for having non-white faces, I'm saying that to overcome racial prejudice (assuming it exists; the VPO are individuals, not a monolithic entity) non-white applicants would have to be truly outstanding.

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guillaume
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RE: The Vienna Philharmonic & their trumpeter

CARLOS PINHEIRO JR wrote:

The question of lack of women in the VPO is real, since they currently show only eight female musicians in their ranks. However, the BPO is not much better - only 17 women in the roster of 128 musicians, or a meagre 13%, which is nothing to write home about - and I don't see anyone criticizing them for it. Admittedly, the VPO is even more misogynistic than its Berlin counterpart, but the latter orchestra also falls short of recommendable standards in this regard, as the numbers above reveal. The problem is that you wouldn't know that by reading the critics.   


So, what to do about this? Given that the VPO's contact with its audience, as with world-famous orchestras and ensembles in general, is mainly through recordings, should those recordings include announcements along the lines of; "that oboe solo was played by a woman/person of colour/homosexual/handicapped person etc"? Otherwise who's to know? Certainly not the critics, who tend to review records sent to them and not research the personnel of the orchestras etc concerned.

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