Thoughts?
It's hard for me to say this, especially at the risk of excommunicating myself from a number of musical circles, but I think I need to express myself...
Music is not as hyper-evolved in academia as its peer art forms, like visual art, literature, and others. I have long struggled to find ideological potentiality that will bring music to the same point, and hopefully create some form of lasting change that is both realized musically, socially, and ideologically. In that search, I have met a wide variety of musicians, and observed a lot of what the community of my peers is all about. However, through this study, I have found exactly the problem that I wish to solve.
While the health of this community is strong intrinsically, there are a number of stigmata that prevent us from advancing. I will draw attention to the two that are the most fundamental and foreboding.
The first of these stigmata is the reverence of tradition in music. Tradition has been sanctified to the point of taboo in several communities, specifically jazz and classical circles, such that I have rarely heard a single word questioning the authority of the traditional in such a social context. The parallel that I can't help but draw to this is the way that cult is constructed on exclusion of the naysayer; only those who support the cult unconditionally can remain in it. Moreover, the cult never changes unless its leadership changes. As such, what it produces may be sufficient for certain purposes, but overall, empty and meaningless to society.
The second is an opposite stigma, which is characterized by unconditional rejection of the traditional. This inherently includes the conscious rejection of any structure whatsoever; however, music naturally assumes structure no matter what. In this case, such structure is either based on automatic tendency (which tends to create the same structure over and over again), corrupted fundamentally by outside influence (money, lust, etc.), or degenerates into garbage rapidly and falls apart because nobody will listen to it.
Let me make it clear that I am NOT advocating that we throw everything out the window and start from scratch. What I AM advocating that we return the idea of respect for the traditional to its original state: that it be accepted conditionally, not accepted unconditionally or rejected unconditionally.
For a tangible example, respect for those older than us is often taught when we are very young, but conditions for that respect are not taught. At a young age, we accept what our elders are saying without any significant filtration. Over time, we must learn methods for filtering what we hear from those older than us by using our own tools of scrutiny. In adolescence, however, often we can become carried away with the neglect of tradition to the point where we reject it unconditionally.
In analogy, the various musical communities that I have observed over the years never really "grew up," and remain in either the stage of the "child," characterized by unconditional acceptance of traditional views, or the state of "the adolescent," which unconditionally rejects the traditional. It's time for us to grow up.
I'm tired of living in fear that I will not be accepted into a community because I can't conform to it. Let us abolish what is already in existence and start fresh, creating an environment for new, creative music to thrive.
This brings me to the personal aspect: I think that what people call "jazz" is amazing, formally and sonically, and I also think that there is much to be learned from it. However, in being honest with myself, I cannot say that I terminologically think in the same way that jazz has presented itself in the past. As a composer and improviser, therefore, I am a deviant from the immediate community of jazz musicians. However, this does not mean that we are incompatible... it just means that I cannot honestly continue to strive for the same goal as many others, as long as the same social structure is in place.
So, I move to formally resign from the world of Bebop, or, in other words, to symbolically liberate myself from it. Using the terms that I have laid out here, I make the offer for others to do the same, and to recognize themselves as similarly liberated individuals.
-Aaron Podietz
- Login or register to post comments
- Flag as offensive
So, after the ashes of the "awfulness of Classical Music" (eventually completely deleted), now we have the "Thoughts?". However, now we have to deal with whom? Mr. Wang or Mr. Podietz? Are you going to reply both using one name? I'm asking this question, since it's not fair to members of this forum not to know whom eventually are they dealing with?
As for the substance: To start with, respect is like love. It should be unconditional. Otherwise, you kid yourself and cheat the supposed object of your respect. "Conditional respect" means do whatever is convenient to you and don't forget to mention how much you appreciate your predecessors too.
By the way, Jazz and Classical are way apart, whether you get it or not. We speak for written and precise music vis a vis improvised and barely composed (in score) music.
To both of view, with (conditional) respect,
Parla
- Login or register to post comments
- Flag as offensive
I don't know Anlin, people using different names on this forum, whatever next. However it is good to see you are back from detention, the moderators wake up at 09.00 GMT. As for 'formally resigning from the world of Bebop' It is good to see that you have finally entered the later decades of the 20th century. Now how to get you into the 21st !
- Login or register to post comments
- Flag as offensive
Freud once said: "You want to kill your father to be your father yourself. Now you are your father, but a dead father."
Not to be taken literally, but I am sure the metaphor applies to each generation. One respects the past but in order to build a future you have to reject the past - it was ever thus and will ever be the same I suspect.
So Alin what you say niether surprises or frightens. It's all part of the process. To quote another:
"What are you rebelling against?"
"What have you got?"
Naupilus
- Login or register to post comments
- Flag as offensive
Excellent post, Naupilus!
To go a bit further from my side, I have to say what Mr. Wang and his alter ego say "neither surprises or freightrens", but it's all part of a process that can easily go astray, lead to what some may call the "contemporary conundrum" and, eventually to a spiritual and, much worse, musical deadlock that, in their minds, looks like the...way out. Perfect!
Parla
- Login or register to post comments
- Flag as offensive
a process that can ... lead to ... a spiritual and, much worse, musical deadlock ...
Interesting order of priority Parla!
Vic.
- Login or register to post comments
- Flag as offensive
It depends on which way (in which order) you "read" it, Vic.
A tip: Focus on which is the final product of what the author and his alter ego are talking about.
Another tip: Some great composers found their (sometimes brilliant) breakthrough despite they suffer from spiritual troubles (e.g. Schumann).
Parla
P.S.: It's interesting, though, that, after several replying posts, the author (and his alter ego) seem either to have vanished in the thin air of the virtual reality of internet or simply enjoy the...obvious responses.
- Login or register to post comments
- Flag as offensive
It depends on which way (in which order) you "read" it, Vic.
"Much worse" establishes the priority surely?
Vic.
- Login or register to post comments
- Flag as offensive
Since you (deliberately or not) ignored my tips, Vic, I have to make it clear to you that, in the context of this thread, the "priority" or the significance of the sequence of events cannot be different: Quite a few composers suffer from spiritual troubles, even deadlocks, but they have the ability, the strength, the knowledge to find their musical (artistic) breakthrough in great works that even the posterity could treasure.
As listeners, while we may (pretty much) interested in the personal situation of a potential composer, the primordial issue that matters is the result, his/her opus.
Parla
- Login or register to post comments
- Flag as offensive
And you, Parla, are missing the point entirely! I refer only to you claiming musical deadlock as "much worse" than spiritual deadlock.
Lighten up, friend!
Vic.
- Login or register to post comments
- Flag as offensive
No, Vic, I'm not claiming, in general, that "musical deadlock is much worse than the spiritual one". In the context of the present and future music-making, as the original author of the thread refers, the process proposed may lead to a spiritual deadlock (which is his personal problem) and much worse to the musical deadlock, namely his music works (which is our - the listeners/audience - problem, since we are going to deal with that only, not his personal spiritual deadlock).
I hope this time you got it, friend.
Parla
- Login or register to post comments
- Flag as offensive
"A spiritual and, much worse, a musical deadlock" is unequivocal.
I would have thought that in the light of out previous exchanges on religion you would have seen the point of this gentle ribbing. Oh well...
Vic.
- Login or register to post comments
- Flag as offensive
Vic and Parla arguing about 'deadlock'. How ironic.
- Login or register to post comments
- Flag as offensive
...or maybe creating (I want to believe unwillingly from both sides) a "deadlock". If it was just a "gentle ribbing", I can overlook the "unequivocal" status of my statement...even in the context of this thread. Take it as it suits you, Vic.
Parla
- Login or register to post comments
- Flag as offensive
Re; the original post, I can't help but thinking, as obvious as it seems, that composers tend to be labelled as traditionalist or avant-garde perhaps a bit too easily, and maybe it's an over-simplified black or white distinction. That distinction then rubs off on us as listeners, so that, consciously or not, whenever I hear a new composer I tend to pigeonhole them one way or the other...
- Login or register to post comments
- Flag as offensive


I didn't write this myself, my friend did. He was talking more about jazz, but his thoughts seem to be equally applicable to classical. And hopefully I won't get flamed for this.