Unfair on "One trick ponies"
Thu, Apr 26 2012, 10:28AM
Was going to include this in froftwalrus topic as is a variation on his forgotten masterpieces theme.Wagner has taken over that thread,so thought it better to start a new one.
It is strange that some composers are accepted by listeners who explore and enjoy all their works.Others are known and famous for one work,and the rest or their compositions are by the most part ignored.For example -
Holst. The Planets
Faure. Requiem
Saint- Sains. Symphony no.3
Grieg. Piano Concerto/Peer Gynt
It is odd that none of the above works are typical of the composer (maybe i have answered my own question) but they all have so much more on offer.
I am exploring the chamber works of Faure at the present time.What a voyage of discovery,they are fantastic.Holst composed lots,most thankfully recorded by Lyrita.One of my favorite violin concertos is the Saint-Sains 3rd but sadly I have neglected much of his other music.The same goes for Greig.
If the Planets had never been written would Holst have been bracketed with Rubbra and Rawsthorne not Vaughan Williams and if Faure had not composed the Requiem,would the first Piano Quartet be rated as one of the greatest chamber works.Who knows.
Thu, Apr 26 2012, 11:44AM
#2
RE: Unfair on "One trick ponies"
A bit unfair to label Faure a 'one trick pony', you may only be aware of one of his works but to me his violin sonatas are where I would start with Faure, then his piano quartets and quintets, then his piano music, then his cello sonatas, then his string quartet, then his piano trio, then I would get around to his requiem. In '20th Century Composers ' Mark Morris names him as being up there with the most important composers of the 20th century. (however Mark Morris is a little bit strange in some of his choices).
Thu, Apr 26 2012, 2:14PM
#3
RE: Unfair on "One trick ponies"
A bit unfair to label Faure a 'one trick pony', you may only be aware of one of his works but to me his violin sonatas are where I would start with Faure, then his piano quartets and quintets, then his piano music, then his cello sonatas, then his string quartet, then his piano trio, then I would get around to his requiem. In '20th Century Composers ' Mark Morris names him as being up there with the most important composers of the 20th century. (however Mark Morris is a little bit strange in some of his choices).
I think you may have misread my post.Far from being aware of only one Faure work,I am listening practically exclusively to all the chamber compositions you list at the present time.
One set of recordings I am keen on is Gabriel Faure.Complete Chamber Music on Turnabout LPs featuring among others the great french pianist Jacqueline Eymar.It is interesting , I think , to quote the liner notes with these recordings "The rapid evolution of music since the beginning of the 20th century when all major composers jumped into the abyss overtook the finely restrained style of Faure.Harmonic innovations are no longer surprising today,and the fine body of chamber music of Faure is almost totally neglected".
Thu, Apr 26 2012, 4:15PM
#4
RE: Unfair on "One trick ponies"
Yes, totally misread it, speak more clearly in future. I'll let you off this time.
Thu, Apr 26 2012, 4:42PM
#5
RE: Unfair on "One trick ponies"
Faure is more than a "one trick pony", mostly because, with the exception of his wonderful Requiem, the rest of his significant work is in a sort of grouping: Chamber Music, Chansons (Songs) and the Piano music. There is a minimal orchestral output of not such a great impact or interest and some individual rather minor choral works.
For those who really indulge in Chamber Music, of course each of his Violin or Cello Sonatas, his great Piano Trio, the two subtle Piano Quartets and Quintets as well as the superb String Quartet are individual masterpieces of their kind and a significant contribution to the genre. However, Chamber Music doesn't sell that well...
For Holst, I have to say that the "Planets" are a very distinctive work with immediate impact, striking originality and quite impressive orchestration. The rest of his work somehow cannot compete to the same effect.
Saint-Saens is definitely a composer well-known not only for his pivotal Symphony no.3. His Violin Concerto no. 3 is a basic repertory work, while at least two of his Piano Concertos and his 1st Cello Concerto keep a good-standing position in the repertory. The "Carnival of the Animals" is maybe more known than the 3rd Symphony.
As for Grieg, you already mentioned two works, which, however, have an immediate and direct appeal. His String Orchestra music is also in a standard position in the genre repertory. The Lyric Pieces for Piano are well respected by pianists and the public too.
However, we should not neglect that, in every single composer, there is a small (or relatively small) group of popular works and the rest is...silence. You have to dig further and further to find more and more gems.
Good hunting.
Parla
Thu, Apr 26 2012, 9:00PM
#6
RE: Unfair on "One trick ponies"
Holst's best work is probably in his shorter pieces, as you allude to historyman. Only those who don't know them would champion the Planets as his best. And yes, Lyrita did sterling work for him with recordings of the Brook Green and St. Paul's suites, the Fugal Concerto, Somerset Rhapsody, Hammersmith etc. that have still not been surpassed. In a way, Faure is similar. His best work imho is in his chamber music.
I suppose all other things being equal, a big work is always going to achieve greater popularity than a smaller one. Holst's Choral Symphony and Cloud Messenger are large scale efforts and the former in particular is worth getting to know. But aside from anything else their subject matter isn't as likely to have wide appeal as the Planets. He's guilty at times of writing rather dry music, a bit like Stravinsky in his neo-classical mood. Choral Fantasia strikes me that way.
Let's not forget that to a great extent the popularity of the Planets hinges on the opening to Mars and the big tune in Jupiter. As a kid, hardly a day would pass without hearing one of them on the radio.
Fri, Apr 27 2012, 11:53AM
#7
RE: Unfair on "One trick ponies"
"As a kid,hardly a day without hearing one of them on the radio" Exactly, a great work has transformed into a hack piece,familiarity breeds contempt.The Planets came up for discussion on an American forum some time ago,I was shocked at the way the work was dismissed as old hat.I felt like saying give the Brook Green Suite a listen,but whats the point. In some situations one great composition can do more harm then good to a composers reputation. In others it is onwards and upwards.Theme of Thomas Tallis did Vaughan Williams no harm. I put One trick ponies in inverted commas for good reason that it is not my view.It seems by some of the replys that this was not understood.My error, in future I shall be strive to be clearer.
Yes, you are right and it is easy to imply a diferent meaning from your original post.
British composers and musicians tend to receive short shrift from sections of the American public.
We are always being accused of favouring our own when, apparently and according to these philistines, others do not.
How do they know? Are they fluent in French, German, Italian, and do the Americans not appreciate their own?
Gramophone, for example, is forever being accused of such favouritism (now, some clown wil come on to repeat the same old, same old).
And what do they know, anyway? Some Elgar and The Planets?
Fri, Apr 27 2012, 4:51PM
#8
RE: Unfair on "One trick ponies"
Yes, Troyen, give it all. "What do they know, anyway"? (Of course, they can never know as much as you know about "your own" stuff).
"Gramophone is forever being accused of such favouritism". Maybe, because even BBCMM is more neutral and balanced (at least more often).
Don't get me wrong. I'm with you on this matter. The French do the same, maybe in a more poised, elaborated and polished way, while the Germans...anyway. I guess you don't trust them, in the first place. As for the Americans, you are somehow right; they glorify, above all, the American Songbook. So, no time for the "Brook Green Suite" or the "Lark Ascending" or even Barber's Violin Concerto.
Alas, we cannot hope for a better future for our or their Classics.
Parla
Fri, Apr 27 2012, 7:57PM
#9
RE: Unfair on "One trick ponies"
I live in the United States. I have far more English music on 78s, LPs, cassettes and CDs than possibly the average English classical music lover. I could give a long list of English composers whose last names begin with an A or a B and fill up this page. By the time I got to Wordsworth the internet would be full and no one would be able to post anything. I have almost every recording Sir Adrian Boult made (not all English, of course). And what is the American Songbook? I do have a lot of music by American composers, but it is far outnumbered by English composers. So, don't get me started. There are other nationalities who can see beyond their own country and seek out the best music everywhere. Excuse me while I go and play Uno Klami's 1st symphony. Finnish music and musicians -- now there's another whole topic to discuss.
Fri, Apr 27 2012, 11:26PM
#10
RE: Unfair on "One trick ponies"
Good for you, Bliss, but how many like you do live in the USA? I've lived for some years in the rosy times of the early to mid 90s, mostly in the south, but also traveling extensively to the great cities of the North, Washington DC and some cities in the West coast. My experience was quite different and rather pessimistic. Quite a few people of the concert-goers did not know even composers like Grieg or Nielsen, while they pronounce Bach as Bats, being ignorant of what the initials J.S. stand for.
If you don't simply live there and you are an American, are you not aware what the American Songbook is?
I'm glad you have time for Klami's works. As the years pass by, I found out, in the not so much time left, I have to listen extensively to the great tradition of the Classical, along with pre-Classical, some brilliant Romantics and the very top of the 20th Century.
Parla
Sat, Apr 28 2012, 12:18AM
#11
RE: Unfair on "One trick ponies"
And what happens, some clown does come on line and post the very cliche I predicted and we can all see who Mr. Predictable is.
As I have said previously and will continue to say so: I despair!
Also, what is that implied distaste that I'm supposed to have for the Germans.
Is this a national stereotype you presume of me? You are so very wrong.
Bliss is the point you are making in agreement with me or just homesickness that causes you to enjoy a relentless third-rater like Wordsworth or were you, merely, using him as an example of your wide taste in British music?
Welcome back, by the way.
Sat, Apr 28 2012, 12:28AM
#12
RE: Unfair on "One trick ponies"
Yes, I was born in the US in 1933 and have never been to any other country, but The Great American Songbook was new to me. After looking it up I can see why. I've been to plenty of musicals and enjoy other types of music besides Classical, but that's where my concentration has been since WWII. I'm sorry you have run into so many Americans unaware of the joys of Classical music. In San Francisco there seems to be no problem balancing the budget and performing works by such composers as Ades, Aho, Bartok, Bax, Beethoven, Berlioz, Brahms, Britten, Bruckner, Cage, Carter, Copland. Cowell, Dutilleux, Dvorak, Elgar, Faure, Janacek, Walton, Vaughan Williams, Verdi, Wagner, Hindemith, Ellington, Wainwright, Shostakovich, Salonen, and more of the usual and the rarely heard. Last week it was Roussel, Saint-Saens and Stravinsky. This week it's Grisy, Prokofiev & Sibelius conducted by the Finn Susanna Malkki. Other American orchestras have, I hope, as varied a season as we do here, and where ever it is that you live.
The above was for Parla. To Troyan1, I was merely pointing out that I am open to listening to music with an open mind and then determining what "rate" it is. I have but two works of Wordsworth but have not rated them yet. Since you have done so maybe I should just skip them.
Sat, Apr 28 2012, 1:23AM
#13
RE: Unfair on "One trick ponies"
I've lived half my life in England, half of it 60 miles north of the 49th and if I could just offer these thoughts:
1) National bias is a fact of life in every country. If any of you have the chance, try tuning into coverage from different nations during the forthcoming Olympics. You won't believe you're watching the same event.
2) My sense is that the Brits have become more accepting of American composers in the past 40-odd years. Interest in serious American music didn't used to extend far past Bernstein, the Barber Adagio, Harris 3rd and the Copland ballets. These days I believe there's as much attention payed to America's worthwhile composers in the UK as there is in the US, perhaps more.
3) Amongst American reviewers there may have been something of a backlash against lesser-known English composers in recent years. Understandably. If you look through old Penguin guides and Gramophones any English composer capable of putting together four bars of music got the 'unjustly neglected' tag, including Wordsworth and people like Rootham and Holbrooke. One or two reviewers in the US haven't hesitated to say something to the effect of, 'unjustly neglected, my eye!'
Sat, Apr 28 2012, 1:31AM
#14
RE: Unfair on "One trick ponies"
Between the 69 character problem and freezing, the Gramophone server is driving me round the bend. It just tried to put the same post in twice. Made me look like our favourite poster.
Sat, Apr 28 2012, 2:43AM
#15
RE: Unfair on "One trick ponies"
Bliss, is the point you are making in agreement with me or just homesickness that causes you to enjoy a relentless third-rater like Wordsworth or were you, merely, using him as an example of your wide taste in British music?
Welcome back, by the way.
[/quote
I don't know how to work this quote business, but the above is a quote from troyen1 and below is my response:
I just played the Wordsworth 2nd Symphony. Hardly third-rate. A very moving work which I shall play again tomorrow. Have you heard it? Or is your opinion based on a greater exposure to his music?
May I politely suggest that it is your perception.
I'll cite just one example which is that in no way is the composer of repertoire works such as The Carnival of the Animals, Samson and Delilah, Rouet d'Omphale, Danse Macabre, the 2nd and 4th piano concertos, Introduction and Rondo Capriccioso and the Havanaise a one trick pony.
Because of the abundance of music through various easily accessible mediums most one trick ponies, these days, tend to be opera composers. I could list them if you want.