Vibrato
Thu, Feb 28 2013, 8:04PM
Anyone else regularly bothered by "excessive" vibrato?
For me, vibrato is a constant issue in singing and string playing. One of the first things I do when I am researching a new recording is find out just how much vibrato is used. Too much - too much for my tastes, I mean - and I just can't listen to it. I find it too annoying and off-putting - even when the recording is otherwise first-rate. All my favourite chamber recordings, for instance, involve restricted or even no vibrato and if I can't find one that meets this requirement, I struggle to enjoy the piece.
Generalising quite a bit, I find that the older the recording the more vibrato there is. Not always, of course, but often. Newer ensembles, brought up during or after the "period" revolution, seem to be more sensitive to it and to treat it as a variable expressive device rather than an automatic feature. Get a quartet recording from, say, the sixties, and you can be pretty much bank on a full gypsy wash of quivering vibrato. Many of the "great" violinists from this period are, for me, just unpalatable.
Just to give a few examples: most of the Hyperion ensembles (Florestan trio, Raphael ensemble, Leopold trio) play with pretty restrained vibrato - so much so, that I know I can rely on them even before I have listened to them. The Borodins play with very little in their Beethoven; sometimes, for long passages, none at all. Most period players, of course, use very little or even none, so I know I can rely on those, too. In comparison, the Tacaks use far too much, as do the Alban Berg and the Emersons.
I have a similar issue with singing, but that can probably wait for another post......
So, anyone else have an issue with vibrato?
Fri, Mar 1 2013, 3:05AM
#2
RE: Vibrato
Yes. Vibrato is too often applied heavily and indiscriminately, though there are more exceptions now. I remember years ago hearing a recording in which the strings of an orchestra seemed to be doing their vibrato in unison - the effect was quite nauseating!
In orchestras, string vibrato can have the effect of blending the ensemble nicely, covering differences in intonation and tone. In chamber music, the individual vibratos stand out and if overdone can fight the unity of the music.
I'm very sensitive to soloists' use of vibrato, not only the range of the tremolo but also the rapidity and emphasis of the "off-note" element. Vengerov is an example of a soloist I can't stand hearing, for this reason.
Critics like Hurwitz seem to have a kneejerk reaction against any performance of post-Classical music that isn't blanketed in the stuff. This seems to be more a matter of loyalty to the formative experiences of youth than a considered evaluation.
I do worry that musicians are encouraged by people like Hurwitz to regard vibrato as the main if not the only expressive device available, leading to neglect of other important possibilities like bow pressure and placement.
Performances with minimal or no vibrato can sound bad, there's no denying that, but lack of vibrato is not necessarily a negative quality, and can in fact open new areas of sound and expression.
Sun, Mar 3 2013, 8:55PM
#3
RE: Vibrato
Seems I'm the exact opposite of Jane as I find orchestral performances without vibrato in Mozart & Haydn onwards unlistenable and my bete noire is of course therefore Norrington. I have virtually no violin concerto recordings by the present generation of performers because I would always go back to the earlier generation with their vibrato, deep rich sound and unique "slides" between notes. No doubt because that's how my musical education commenced with the concerto recordings of the teenaged Menuhin, early Heifetz & Kreisler.
I listened earlier today to Testament's pressing of the (in)famous recording of Gioconda da Vito playing Mozart's K216 with Kubelik/RPO and loved it to the extent that I found the slow movement deeply moving (though I'm not sure about the Principe cadenza in the first movement!). She does of course play in the style of the '30s rather than the '60s and although slated by Gramophone on its first appearance (largely I guess for that reason) it has of course achieved cult status in Japan, where it may have made its only appearance on CD. I would take it any day in preference to a modern performance.
Mon, Mar 4 2013, 6:12PM
#4
RE: Vibrato
I've been away for a few days and have some catching up to do.
Interesting subject, Jane with room for plenty of friendly disagreement!
I must say I rather side with 33lp and find it rather difficult accepting music after Bach without vibrato, though, rather to my surprise, after initial resistance I have come to find playing of Bach's (and earlier) music less and less acceptable with too much vibrato. This, despite some difficulty in writing off great recordings of the unaccompanied sonatas and partitas played by my favourite violinists, Heifetz, Grumiaux, Milstein etc.
Perhaps in due course I'll get used to less vibrato in more recent music but I doubt it, for this reason. There is an important aspect of vibrato in string playing that I find it difficult to ignore. In a fine film made by Bruno Monsaingeon, The Art of Violin, an introductory sequence has sections from the beginning of the Mendelssohn concerto played by great violinists of the past. Itzakh Perlman comments to the effect that the extraordinary thing is how each of them produced a unique sound. That difference comes more than anything from their style of vibrato. Without vibrato violinists all sound much more similar. I'd miss those differences: to me they are as important as the unique sound of a great singer's voice. So I shan't quickly be relinquishing my Heifetz, Grumiaux, Oistrakh recordings and still find plenty of time for Perlman, Mutter, Mullova, each with their distinctive vibrato.
Chris
Mon, Mar 4 2013, 7:11PM
#5
RE: Vibrato
Funny you mention Grumiaux, Chris - he is just the kind of violinist I have to avoid. His Mozart Divertimento/string trio K563 just came top in a recent radio 3 "Building a Library". I don't doubt his artistry or mastery; I just don't like that much vibrato.
Just to be clear: I prefer some vibrato to none. I just prefer it to be fairly light and used with discretion. No vibrato - as in none at all - is really quite rare and I am not really a fan of that in most cases. Even with the "old" period stuff (early Simon Standage, say) you get a little bit throughout most of it.
The kind of violinist I really like, for example, is Isabelle Faust. With her, you do get vibrato, but it is used fairly sparingly and she varies it for expressive purposes - and, of course, depending upon the period and so on. With some of the old greats, you get the same heavy, quivering vibrato on everything. Mozart, Bach, Tchaikovksy - it's all the same. Like a dark, glossy lacquer on every piece of furniture in the room. It's not a question of authenticity; I am not all that interested in that. Just personal taste.
As for orchestral/symponic music, I find this much less off-putting, though I prefer it to be reasonably sparing in pre-Romantic music. Otherwise, I rarely find it excessive and even find no-vibrato (Norrington Mahler, for instance) recordings unpalatable.
Mon, Mar 4 2013, 7:52PM
#6
RE: Vibrato
Jane, you don't mention Heifetz, with his unique vibrato. For me the greatest of all violinists. Do you know his (admittedly very old) K563?
Of course there will never be agreement on such a subject. When I was a young man, my father and grandad were trying to convince me, without success, of the superiority of Kreisler, Huberman, Kulenkampff and Elman etc. over the favourites of 'my' time. Now I'm the 'oldie' !
Nevermind. I'm just about to pre-order the complete Heifetz-Piatigorsky chamber concerts set from Sony!
You mention Isabelle Faust. Do you know her recording of the Berg and Beethoven concerti? To me, the sound she makes suits the former much more than the latter. I think the Berg is one of the greatest recordings of that superb work that I know, the shortage of vibrato in the Beethoven is a distinct disadvantage for me!
Chris
Mon, Mar 4 2013, 8:26PM
#7
RE: Vibrato
Don't know Heifetz (though I have obviously heard of him)........but will have a little listen tonight. I expect it will be dreadful......
Yes, I have the Faust Berg and Beethoven, but I have to admit that I don't understand the Berg. If you tell me it is worth it, I will persevere, but at the moment, I can't make head or tail of it. What about her Beethoven violin sonatas with Melnikov? Do you have those? I can't see anyone beating those for a long time.
Mon, Mar 4 2013, 10:22PM
#8
RE: Vibrato
Well, Jane, I'm not sure it will help, but I do think it very well worth persevering with the Berg. One thing is for sure, the Faust recording you have is one of the greatest, and superbly conducted by Abbado too.
As for the Beethoven sonatas, I don't know the Faust/Melnikov set. My favourites are Haskil & Grumiaux (!), and Maria-Joao Pires and Augustin Dumay. I do think the pianist is if anything more important in those sonatas. I must admit I'm still looking for the perfect recording.
Anyway, good luck with Berg and Heifetz! I must do my Rinaldo homework!
Chris
Tue, Mar 5 2013, 1:26PM
#9
RE: Vibrato
Chris
Had a listen to Heifetz. My God, that man liked his vibrato! Not really my cup of tea.
I really like the Dumay/Pires set, too. I don't find his vibrato off-putting and like him in just about everything he does. (Just got the Franck/Debussy sonatas with Pires). He has a lovely soft tone, warm and almost husky.
Tue, Mar 5 2013, 3:49PM
#10
RE: Vibrato
Re Heifetz, rather the response I was expecting, Jane!
I have a feeling that the trend towards less vibrato is associated with a move away, or at least beyond, the standard concerto repertory. It's no longer enough to play Beethoven, Brahms, Bruch, Mendelssohn, Tchaikovsky, Sibelius concerti. Much of the repertory that violinists now consider normal demands less vibrato, and not surprisingly, this has fed back to the original standard works. What do you think: merely an idiosyncratic idea or a germ of truth? I won't be offended!
Chris
Tue, Mar 5 2013, 7:44PM
#11
RE: Vibrato
Isn't vibrato a device for those who can't sing/play in tune to approximate the correct note? At least that's what it often sounds like! We don't miss it on the piano and other perfectly tuned devices so why do we need it elsewhere?
Wed, Mar 6 2013, 10:30AM
#12
RE: Vibrato
No, Bazza, vibrato is not a deficiency of a singer or string player; it's his/her/their trademark! Pavarotti, Heifetz, Kreisler would not be remembered as the great artists in their field, if they perform without their vibrato.
By the way, any instrument, in any genre, can perform vibrato, of course, with different technic. For more than a century, whole world class orchestras perform with vibrato.
Jane, for Beethoven's Violin Sonatas, apart from the competitive Faust/Melnikov and Dumay/Pires, you should give a good listening to the finest (for many, including violinists) modern recording of Mutter/Orkis, in an almost demonstration quality recording of DG. Mutter has a superb tone and a great bowing technic, while Orkis is a perfect partner, with a great sense of the Beethovenian writing of the character of each Sonata. Repeats are observed, as they were written, and tempi are on the slower and analytical side. Faust/Melnikov opt for much faster tempi and their reocrding is not that impressive.
From the more recent ones, the Kavakos/Rava on Decca is at least very well-performed and warmly recorded. Kavakos plays a very fine instrument and owns a warm, fine sound. Rava is a very accomplished pianist.
From the older ones, I appreciate very much the Kremer/Argerich on DG, the olympian sound of Oistrach on both the old Philips and the live recording on Doremi (both with his pianist-partner Lev Oborin) and the Perlman/Ashkenazy on Decca.
A surprising warm approach comes from the Supraphon revival of the classic Suk/Panenka recording. Two glorious artists in superb playing. Good recording.
Finally, the first SACD (and live) recording of the complete Violin Sonatas came from the French Lyrinx, with two very promising artists, the violinst David Galoustov and the exciting young (or rather young) pianist Caroline Sageman.
I hope it might help you or anyone interested.
Parla
Wed, Mar 6 2013, 5:54PM
#13
RE: Vibrato
Parla, I think Mr Bazza has been playing a baiting game. I nearly fell for the bait myself last night!
I don't think he's really ready to write off all the great violinists and singers of the 20th century quite as quickly as that! Eh Bazza?
Perhap's it's worth recalling Jane's question in her original post: "Anyone else regularly bothered by "excessive" vibrato?"
The question then is, what is excessive, and is 'excessive' the same whatever the music. For me a performance of the Tchaikovsky or Bruch violin concerto demands a degree of vibrato that would certainly be out of place in Bach. Then as we move forward through Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms we are in more controversial territory. And then on beyond with Berg, Stravinsky, Bartok? What's the saying: horses for courses? Perhaps it would be interesting to hear the extent to which members would ideally choose a different player for each of these concerti?
Back briefly to the Beethoven violin sonatas. As I said, I'm still looking for the perfect recording, where both players are equal and equal to the music, equally balanced and well recorded. Looking through your list Parla, and reading beteen the lines, almost all fall down to some extent on one or other point. For now Haskil and Grumiaux remain at the top of my list, but it must be admitted they are not brilliantly recorded. I love the Pires/Dumay set but much more for Pires than Dumay. I haven't hear the new Kavakos/Rava set yet, but live in hope!
Watch out for fishermen with baited hooks!
Chris
Thu, Mar 7 2013, 7:20AM
#14
RE: Vibrato
Chris, I don't think you or me or anyone else may ever claim that there is a "perfect" recording of Beethoven's Violin Sonatas or any other work of any composer. I believe we may talk about great recordings only and one of them is the Mutter/Orkis, where both players are working on an equal basis, very responsive to the music and brilliantly recorded.
By all means, someone else may find some other recording great too, for similar reasons.
Parla
Thu, Mar 7 2013, 9:19AM
#15
RE: Vibrato
Parla, of course you are right that no one can claim a single perfect recording of anything! And yet, for example with the Beethoven quartets, whilst I'm listening to a performance by the Vegh, or Italians say, I don't feel any problem, whilst I usually do with the violin sonatas. Perhaps it's something to do with the fact that a duo sonata lies uncomfortably between a solo work and chamber music. Maybe it is the most difficult form to bring off? The Cello sonatas seem to have been luckier!
I wish I could enjoy the Mutter/Orkis version better. She makes a gorgeous sound but seems to me to be unable these days to play simply. Like you, I heard her play several of the sonatas 'live' around the time the recordings were being made and had the same impression then. Of course, we're all different. One man's unmannered is another man's boring, and so on!
Chris
I may almost fully agree with the general thrust of your introductory text, Jane. However, bare in mind that Pavarotti would have not been what he was without his vibrato, despite his voce d'oro. Likewise, Kreisler or Rostropovich.
To put it in another way, vibrato, regardless of its excessive or not use, can be acceptable, if the performer/s (often the whole orchestra performs vibrato) may incorporate it so well, that does not intervene or interfere in the actual work (becomes an integral part of it) and the performance as a whole (Pavarotti comes again in mind).
Parla
P.S.: Jane, there has been another thread some time ago (before you joined the forum) on the same issue. If you have the patience, you may retrieve it.