Vivaldi - Composer of the 21st Century ?
Sun, Feb 26 2012, 10:36PM
For the first time the number of CDs I have of works by Vivaldi has outnumbered the CDs I have of works by Stravinsky. Nothing of any great importance in itself, I admit. BUT as recording companies fall over themselves to present a variety of works by Vivaldi they seem to be ever more neglecting that once great monolith of the 20th Century, Stravinsky. Has there been a definite sea change, and has the composer who 'wrote the same concerto 500 times' (Stravinsky's words) now eclipsed Igor in terms of popularity and importance. People used to claim that Vivaldi was a 'one hit' composer with The Four Seasons, is Stravinsky now a 'one hit' composer with the Rite of Spring?
Mon, Feb 27 2012, 2:37PM
#2
RE: Vivaldi - Composer of the 21st Century ?
......Chant du Rossignol.
Mon, Feb 27 2012, 3:02PM
#3
RE: Vivaldi - Composer of the 21st Century ?
Mr. Einstein, I think the question Vivaldi versus Stravinsky is wrong. They are both great composers, but quite different and with no connection whatsoever.
Vivaldi has a very vast opus with well crafted chamber works, the 500 plus concertos (who might sound the same, but they are quite different and rich), other orchestral works (concertos for multiple instruments), an extensive and very beautiful as well as inspiring choral work and an array of some significant Operas.
Stravinsky is one of the figures of th 20th century with some uneven works and very inspiring ones as well (even the "Rite", from some point of view, is a bit uneven). His chamber works are not many and with few to mention. The Orchestral works seem to be the most successful and popular (Rite, Petroushka, Firebird, Apollo, etc.). His concertos are few and dubious (the Violin Concerto may be worth mentioning), the choral works are fine but not that many and for the Opera this Oedipus Rex looks a bit meagre and rather bizarre.
So, it's not that surprising if you have a wider variety of CDs of VIvaldi than Stravinsky. I have a huge variety of CDs on C.P.E. Bach, Telemann and Spohr, for example. So...
Parla
Mon, Feb 27 2012, 7:19PM
#4
RE: Vivaldi - Composer of the 21st Century ?
That's it then. I always rather liked Stravinsky but now I find he's just another dud. Thank you Parla, for enlightening me.
To get to Frank's point, I think the more interesting question is not whether he was a one-hit-wonder (definitely not, imho), but did he peak early? There are many very fine works throughout his ouvre from Firebird through to the Symphony in Three Movements (hardly a symphony, but who cares) and the post-war Mass. Even after that, Rake's Progress and Agon aren't too shabby. But did he ever come close to Rite of Spring? Admittedly, it's hard to compare that work with any other, perhaps THE defining work of the last century.
I've given some thought to composers who hit max early in life, and never quite lived up to that promise. I'm sure other posters can come up with names but the only one I'd offer is Rawsthorne. He wrote some quite nice concerti, especially PC #2, but surely nothing came close to his 1938 Symphonic Studies, a work that seemed to point towards a brilliant future.
Tue, Feb 28 2012, 12:12AM
#5
RE: Vivaldi - Composer of the 21st Century ?
You are not only supposed to look at Oedipus Rex but listen as well, duh!
Bizarre!? That is the most bizarrest comment I've ever seen concerning Stravinsky's tight, brilliant masterpiece.
Dubious concertos? What would they be: the piano concerto, 'cello concerto and double concerto he failed to write? How very remiss of him.
I think he probably did peak to soon in popular affection. Compare the number of recordings of the Rite, Petrushka and Firebird with the rest of his oeuvre. It is overwhelming in comparison. Although I am happy with repeat hearings of the first two and the Symphony in Three Movements I have no overwhelming desire to hear the rest, even Oedipus Rex, except on the odd occasion.
Also, it may be that his traversal through the genres of the 20th century did him no favours with the public.
Tue, Feb 28 2012, 8:17AM
#6
RE: Vivaldi - Composer of the 21st Century ?
He was the David Bowie of classical music, russian dance, neo classicism, atonalism - whatever was popular he would change to suit. He will probably be ranked as a second rate composer in twenty years time. David Bowie (like Paul Simon) will be forgotten about completely.
Tue, Feb 28 2012, 11:00AM
#7
RE: Vivaldi - Composer of the 21st Century ?
I didn't try to diminish the already established greatness of maestro Stravinsky. I just tried to explain why someone who collects CDs might end up with a much limited number of them compared to CDs from too many other composers who might look less important. However, Vivaldi is not one of them, anyway.
As for Oedipus, the music might be tight, perhaps for some even brilliant, but, if we consider how he treats the subject of this glorious ancient tragedy is a bit bizarre, to say the least. The fact it is performed so rarely say something. The Rake's Progress (thanks for reminding me, Tagalie, of this otherwise almost forgotten Opera) is more to the point of his compositional skills and, to some extent, it has enjoyed some good performances and a minor popularity.
Parla
Tue, Feb 28 2012, 11:14AM
#8
RE: Vivaldi - Composer of the 21st Century ?
He was the David Bowie of classical music, russian dance, neo classicism, atonalism - whatever was popular he would change to suit. He will probably be ranked as a second rate composer in twenty years time. David Bowie (like Paul Simon) will be forgotten about completely.
David who..?
Tue, Feb 28 2012, 11:27AM
#9
RE: Vivaldi - Composer of the 21st Century ?
I didn't try to diminish the already established greatness of maestro Stravinsky. I just tried to explain why someone who collects CDs might end up with a much limited number of them compared to CDs from too many other composers who might look less important. However, Vivaldi is not one of them, anyway.
As for Oedipus, the music might be tight, perhaps for some even brilliant, but, if we consider how he treats the subject of this glorious ancient tragedy is a bit bizarre, to say the least. The fact it is performed so rarely say something. The Rake's Progress (thanks for reminding me, Tagalie, of this otherwise almost forgotten Opera) is more to the point of his compositional skills and, to some extent, it has enjoyed some good performances and a minor popularity.
Parla
Not by Glyndebourne is it forgotten. Another significant gap in your musical knowledge.
I await your backpedalling with complete ennui.
Stravinsky treats the Oedipus myth in almost oratorical-like terms. What takes Enescu hours takes Stravinsky less than an hour. Brilliant! Please enlighten us as to why or where it is bizarre.
Tue, Feb 28 2012, 12:02PM
#10
RE: Vivaldi - Composer of the 21st Century ?
My The Sideways Guide to Composers book has 'Stravinsky spent 30 years criticising the 12-note system, and then surprised everyone by turning to it when Schoenberg was dead. This is more likely to have been due to Stravinsky's restlessness and readiness to try new forms and techniques rather than petty spite.'
I wonder why he may have been spiteful.
Tue, Feb 28 2012, 3:31PM
#11
RE: Vivaldi - Composer of the 21st Century ?
I don't know about Glyndebourne (why should I?), but I have not seen any performance of "Oedipus" neither in Berlin, Hamburg, Leipzig or Dresden, in France, in other major European cities or in some major American ones and definitely not in Asia.
The fact that Stravinsky moves between opera and oratorio shows a certain degree of his own frustration or even confusion. The orchestration is strange and not that workable (the percussion/brass fusion at times work rather noisily rather than expressively). There is a mismatch of the superb text of Sophocles (even in the Cocteau version) with the corresponding musical accompaniment. The use of appogiaturas and references to italian opera work, sometimes, rather strangely, if we consider the nature of the work. In short, I don't believe this product of Stravinsky does full justice to the superb and magnificent work of Sophocles.
However, if it works for you, fine, but History has not proved so favourable for the work and its performances.
Parla
Tue, Feb 28 2012, 3:53PM
#12
RE: Vivaldi - Composer of the 21st Century ?
What takes Enescu hours takes Stravinsky less than an hour. Brilliant!
[/quote]
The fact that Enescu is a third rate composer is hardly proof that Stravinsky is exceptional.
Wed, Feb 29 2012, 11:27AM
#13
RE: Vivaldi - Composer of the 21st Century ?
I don't know about Glyndebourne (why should I?), but I have not seen any performance of "Oedipus" neither in Berlin, Hamburg, Leipzig or Dresden, in France, in other major European cities or in some major American ones and definitely not in Asia.
The fact that Stravinsky moves between opera and oratorio shows a certain degree of his own frustration or even confusion. The orchestration is strange and not that workable (the percussion/brass fusion at times work rather noisily rather than expressively). There is a mismatch of the superb text of Sophocles (even in the Cocteau version) with the corresponding musical accompaniment. The use of appogiaturas and references to italian opera work, sometimes, rather strangely, if we consider the nature of the work. In short, I don't believe this product of Stravinsky does full justice to the superb and magnificent work of Sophocles.
However, if it works for you, fine, but History has not proved so favourable for the work and its performances.
Parla
Why shouldn't you know about Glyndebourne as you are on a British music magazine website that has reviewed a number of Glydebourne issues in recent years(putting aside the number of productions that have made it to disc in the past, mostly on EMI)or do you not read the magazine or show an interest in anything other than your own overwhelming ego and dodgy opinions and are merely here to troll?
Why should you not know about Glyndebourne, indeed, or the, I thought, famous DVD under Haitink?
As for Oedipus Rex, you either have a faulty performance on disc or you have completely misunderstood it or both. Personally, I find it an exciting work but, like most Stravinsky, one I have no desire to pull off the shelf all that often.
Wed, Feb 29 2012, 11:30AM
#14
RE: Vivaldi - Composer of the 21st Century ?
What takes Enescu hours takes Stravinsky less than an hour. Brilliant!
The fact that Enescu is a third rate composer is hardly proof that Stravinsky is exceptional.
[/quote]
I did not offer it as anything other than as a comparison with another work on the same subject.
Your knowledge of the Roumanian's oeuvre is that wide that you can make such pronouncements or is your judgement based on a work or two or more?
Wed, Feb 29 2012, 11:51AM
#15
RE: Vivaldi - Composer of the 21st Century ?
3 actually, the 2 string quartets and an a duckstet or something, there are no ducks in it though. (Dixtour)
No. There's Petrushka and Firebird and...