Vivaldi - Composer of the 21st Century ?

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RE: Vivaldi - Composer of the 21st Century ?

I don't know about Glyndebourne (why should I?), but I have not seen any performance of "Oedipus" neither in Berlin, Hamburg, Leipzig or Dresden, in France, in other major European cities or in some major American ones and definitely not in Asia.

The fact that Stravinsky moves between opera and oratorio shows a certain degree of his own frustration or even confusion. The orchestration is strange and not that workable (the percussion/brass fusion at times work rather noisily rather than expressively). There is a mismatch of the superb text of Sophocles  (even in the Cocteau version) with the corresponding musical accompaniment. The use of appogiaturas and references to italian opera work, sometimes, rather strangely, if we consider the nature of the work. In short, I don't believe this product of Stravinsky does full justice to the superb and magnificent work of Sophocles.

However, if it works for you, fine, but History has not proved so favourable for the work and its performances.

Parla

RE: Vivaldi - Composer of the 21st Century ?

troyen1 wrote:

 What takes Enescu hours takes Stravinsky less than an hour. Brilliant! 

[/quote]

 

The fact that Enescu is a third rate composer is hardly proof that Stravinsky is exceptional.

RE: Vivaldi - Composer of the 21st Century ?

parla wrote:

I don't know about Glyndebourne (why should I?), but I have not seen any performance of "Oedipus" neither in Berlin, Hamburg, Leipzig or Dresden, in France, in other major European cities or in some major American ones and definitely not in Asia.

The fact that Stravinsky moves between opera and oratorio shows a certain degree of his own frustration or even confusion. The orchestration is strange and not that workable (the percussion/brass fusion at times work rather noisily rather than expressively). There is a mismatch of the superb text of Sophocles  (even in the Cocteau version) with the corresponding musical accompaniment. The use of appogiaturas and references to italian opera work, sometimes, rather strangely, if we consider the nature of the work. In short, I don't believe this product of Stravinsky does full justice to the superb and magnificent work of Sophocles.

However, if it works for you, fine, but History has not proved so favourable for the work and its performances.

Parla

Why shouldn't you know about Glyndebourne as you are on a British music magazine website that has reviewed a number of Glydebourne issues in recent years(putting aside the number of productions that have made it to disc in the past, mostly on EMI)or do you not read the magazine or show an interest in anything other than your own overwhelming ego and dodgy opinions and are merely here to troll?

Why should you not know about Glyndebourne, indeed, or the, I thought, famous DVD under Haitink?

As for Oedipus Rex, you either have a faulty performance on disc or you have completely misunderstood it or both. Personally, I find it an exciting work but, like most Stravinsky, one I have no desire to pull off the shelf all that often.

 

RE: Vivaldi - Composer of the 21st Century ?

Devon Farmer wrote:

troyen1 wrote:

 What takes Enescu hours takes Stravinsky less than an hour. Brilliant! 

 

The fact that Enescu is a third rate composer is hardly proof that Stravinsky is exceptional.

[/quote]

I did not offer it as anything other than as a comparison with another work on the same subject.

Your knowledge of the Roumanian's oeuvre is that wide that you can make such pronouncements or is your judgement based on a work or two or more?

RE: Vivaldi - Composer of the 21st Century ?

So, at least we may agree on one thing (or we have a common feature), Troyen on"Oedipus": we both avoid listening to it that often, even for different reasons. Which makes the work a bit...less successful. The performances of "Oedipus" I have are : a)Kraft on Naxos, b) C. Davis on Orfeo and the recent one  with Gergiev (SACD) on Mariinsky.

What about the other "bizarre" work of the otherwise great Igor, namely "Les Noces"? Do you find it also exciting and brilliant?

Parla

RE: Vivaldi - Composer of the 21st Century ?

parla wrote:

So, at least we may agree on one thing (or we have a common feature), Troyen on"Oedipus": we both avoid listening to it that often, even for different reasons. Which makes the work a bit...less successful. The performances of "Oedipus" I have are : a)Kraft on Naxos, b) C. Davis on Orfeo and the recent one  with Gergiev (SACD) on Mariinsky.

What about the other "bizarre" work of the otherwise great Igor, namely "Les Noces"? Do you find it also exciting and brilliant?

Parla

Les Noces, can't stand it, never have, never will and I am the same with Firebird. If I want to listen to Minkus I'll go and listen to Minkus, not! I fully appreciate that I am at fault here and it might be a work of towering genius so do not tell me that some of the finest minds in 20th century arts all tell me to go listen and learn, blather, blather, blather, as I will not!

But we were discussing your blistering ignorance of Glyndebourne's contribution to the performing of th Stravinsky operatic oeuvre were we not or have you not had time to Google it yet?

Incidentally, I do not avoid listening to Oedipus Rex, I do not listen all that often like hundreds of works. Pay attention at the back there or are you tired and emotional after a busy week organising concerts etc?

RE: Vivaldi - Composer of the 21st Century ?


I listened to Oedipus again this morning and reminded myself that it’s not until the last twenty minutes that the thing gets going. I’ve got the Ancerl on vinyl, the one Gramophone complained had the last two notes snipped off. Well, they’re there on mine. Makes you wonder if the reviewer had one of those old decks that automatically lifted the arm on the playout grooves, sometimes before.

Les Noces I love, one of my favourite Stravinsky pieces. Again, I’ve got an old vinyl Ancerl (THERE was a fine conductor) recorded in a typical Supraphon public swimming pool acoustic. Sounds like there’s fifteen pianos and the Mormon Tabernacle choir in there. The one time I heard the work live, in a normal acoustic, I was far less impressed.

 

It does strike me, looking at a list of Stravinsky’s compositions, that there are some I could whistle first note to last, others I’ve never or rarely heard. Furthermore, I don’t have a pressing urge to go explore them. Maybe it comes down to him being a composer we tend to respect rather than love.

RE: Vivaldi - Composer of the 21st Century ?

tagalie wrote:
Maybe it comes down to him being a composer we tend to respect rather than love.

I was going to say this.  To be honest, even the Rite bores me in its full form, though of course its importance is undeniable.

'Art doesn't need philosophers. It just needs to communicate from soul to soul.' Alejandro Jodorowsky

RE: Vivaldi - Composer of the 21st Century ?

I definitely love some of his works, like Apollon musagete, Agon, Divertimento, Scenes de ballet and I respect the rest, since he was a great musical mind, anyway.

The fact that I find some of his works "bizarre", strange, unusual does not make them unworthy or bad music. They don't work that well with me, most of the audience and musicians I happen to know and I, as well the people I know, resort to occasional listening. His works, in addition, are performed almost rarely, except for the three "big" ballets.

By the way, what's your views on another controversial (to put it that way) work: Symphony of Psalms?

Parla

RE: Vivaldi - Composer of the 21st Century ?

I'm with you as far as your last paragraph goes, Tagalie.

As for Symphony of Psalms without stating the bleeding obvious I find I like it as much as that old mother******, Oedipus; OK on occasions.

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