Wagner's Ring Cycle.
Mon, Apr 29 2013, 3:38AM
#2
RE: Wagner's Ring Cycle.
Precisely, Jane. From another quick look, there are some inferior "Ring" recordings from $11.97-14, in various net sources, including the Neuhold (but not on Brilliant).
Dmitri, if you read our "remarks" at face value, you may call them "vile". However, It's quite the opposite. In any case, if Ian is so "happy with his copy of the ring cycle" and, at the same time, he initiates a thread without making clear that he does not need any "remarks" from other forum members except for like-minded (if there might be more than a couple who may appreciate this particular "Ring"), wew are not to blame if we "care" (as Ian "suggests") to comment and share our thoughts.
Finally, if you suggest that an internet forum is not "real life" (in any case, we don't know identities, CVs etc. about each other), there cannot be any value judgement for the qualities of its members.
Parla
Mon, Apr 29 2013, 1:37PM
#3
RE: Wagner's Ring Cycle.
When is a bargain not a bargain? It seems that the maxim 'You get what you pay' for was never less true for CDs than it is today. Some of the greatest ever Ring cycles can be bought for no more than a few pounds per CD, including; Barenboim Böhm, Furtwängler, Janowski, Knappertsbusch, whilst you can pay full price for quite a number of underwhelming versions. Interesting (in view of disussion elsewhere) that the versions of Karajan and Solti, backed by maximum marketing, still sell for 90-120 pounds!
Same is true of so much else: the great Beethoven cycles of Toscanini, Furtwängler, Klemperer (along with almost all his EMI discography) and Karajan cost peanuts, whilst dozens of recordings by orchestras and conductors you've never heard of are being marketed at full price. I'm not saying there are not fine recordings amongst them, but the situation is truly a minefield for anyone starting from scratch!
I suppose the definition of a bargain is something that you would have bought even if the price had been higher. How to know what is worth buying in this maelstrom of a market: the sad situation is that the two 'bibles' for CD enthusiasts, the Penguin and Gramophone guides have both ceased publication in our hour of greatest need. At the same time reviews in Gramophone offer less and less comparative advice. It's hard to blame the contributors, the task is a mighty one.
Anyway it is good to hear that Ian is happy with his purchase. Ian, if you hear the greatness of the music, then all is well. Few people remain indifferent to Wagner. If this sets converts you, then quite likely an expensive future awaits you! Enjoy.
Chris
Wed, May 1 2013, 1:45AM
#4
RE: Wagner's Ring Cycle.
Ignore the usual trolls, Ian, and their vile remarks. They never stop. They come to the internet to bait and patronise as they would love to do in real life, but never can.
Ring Cycle for a tenner and a good one at that - brilliant, why the heck not?
Fully seconded by me.
Wed, May 1 2013, 1:57AM
#5
RE: Wagner's Ring Cycle.
No wonder, occasional contributor. No wonder. Welcome again, though.
Parla
Wed, May 1 2013, 3:57PM
#6
RE: Wagner's Ring Cycle.
Where on earth is the trolling on this thread? I have looked through the comments and I can't see anything of that nature. Ian has commented that he has bought a cheap Ring and, in return, some of us have commented that there are much better Rings to be had for a few pounds more.......This really doesn't sound like trolling to me.
"Vile remarks"? Which ones are vile? Can someone explain?
Wed, May 1 2013, 6:35PM
#7
RE: Wagner's Ring Cycle.
Or someone who adopts multiple pseudonyms and uses them to make foolish comments which are deliberately intended to irritate, offend and frustrate.
Wed, May 1 2013, 7:16PM
#8
RE: Wagner's Ring Cycle.
Mista Donut, ask Dr Brodsky for some more tablets, please!
Wed, May 1 2013, 8:52PM
#9
RE: Wagner's Ring Cycle.
If only we knew what Pablo Largo thought about this issue..........Hmmmm......
Wed, May 1 2013, 10:16PM
#10
RE: Wagner's Ring Cycle.
Personally I think you are all getting sidetracked from the main issue. Which is are Ian's discs worth more melted down and turned back into raw plastic and aluminium.
Wed, May 1 2013, 10:44PM
#11
RE: Wagner's Ring Cycle.
Sidney et al,
How do you keep track of all your passwords? Two personas is more than enough for me.
Thu, May 2 2013, 12:10PM
#12
RE: Wagner's Ring Cycle.
I'm looking forward to your "second persona", Jane, or you have already made use of it...
Anyhow, you are always welcome.
Parla
Thu, May 2 2013, 8:29PM
#13
RE: Wagner's Ring Cycle.
I notice as I listen to the Ring Cycle that I would love to know how he actually composed such a compelling opera, I know it is based on fictional accounts of gods, dwarves, and on Nordic mythology.
Thu, May 2 2013, 9:10PM
#14
RE: Wagner's Ring Cycle.
As you might expect, Ian, quite a lot has been written about this over the years. Roughly speaking, he started with prose drafts of the story, then wrote the verse, then wrote the music of each of the four operas. Originally, the opera was only going to be about Siegfried; this was the first text he started work on (1848). Then he realised, as he wrote it, that he would need to go back in time to look at Siegfried's youth, so he started work on that (1851). Then it occured to him that he needed to go a bit further back to look at the broader mythical context - to look at the gods, I mean - so he started work on Walkure (1851). Finally, he realised he needed to go even further back than that again and wrote Rheingold (1851).
So, to summarise, he wrote the story/libretto backwards.
Work on the music started in 1853 and this was written in order as the operas are performed: Rheingold (finished 1854), Walkure (finished 1856), Siegfried (1871) and Gotterdammerung (1874).
In total, the whole thing took 26 years. But......but, famously, he stopped working on Siegfried in 1857 and didn't start again until 1869. In the meantime, he wrote Tristan and Die Meistersingers.
Lastly, his view of the opera changed continually as he wrote it. Others may challenge this, but basically it appears that his first intention was to write a kind of heroic story about Siegfried which would ultimately show good triumphing over evil, but over time (as he came under the spell of the "pessimistic" philosopher Schopenhauer and his revolutionary ideals cooled a little) he rejected such an optimistic view of history in view of something far more ambiguous.......
Thu, May 2 2013, 11:05PM
#15
RE: Wagner's Ring Cycle.
Lastly, his view of the opera changed continually as he wrote it. Others may challenge this, but basically it appears that his first intention was to write a kind of heroic story about Siegfried which would ultimately show good triumphing over evil, but over time (as he came under the spell of the "pessimistic" philosopher Schopenhauer and his revolutionary ideals cooled a little) he rejected such an optimistic view of history in view of something far more ambiguous.......
Indeed, Jane. And that's what makes Wagner great to me: the moral ambiguity of his characters - and of the plot itself. Nothing is black or white, good or evil, there's always some moral corruption in his "hero" characters and warm humanity in his villains. Alberich, Mime and the giants are to a certain degree sympathetic characters, nothing like Verdi's and Puccini's cardboard villains. And Siegfried will always be the hero you love to hate.
Seen how pessimist Wagner's view of the world was, it's surprising the Nazis found so much to their liking in his music. But I suspect they based their opinion about his music almost exclusively on the Meistersinger, and on its pompous finale in particular, and their approach to the Ring and its subversive message to dictators of all eras (all delusions of grandeur will ultimately be rewarded with destruction and oblivion) was that of someone who admires a painting for its pretty colors but completely bypasses its meaning and purpose.
I've heard Neuhold's Rheingold and thought it good. The sound definitely benefits from a bass boost, though.
'Art doesn't need philosophers. It just needs to communicate from soul to soul.' Alejandro Jodorowsky