Wagner's Ring Cycle.
Fri, May 3 2013, 12:15PM
#2
RE: Wagner's Ring Cycle.
Thankyou Jane, 50 Mill, & Parla, I'll look into it further.
Fri, May 3 2013, 4:45PM
#3
RE: Wagner's Ring Cycle.
If the ring is about anything then it is about the fall of the landed classes and middle class culture and the rise of the working classes and light entertainment. Aided by naive middle class liberals and the BBC. The ring is stamped with references all the way through it. There is even a section that uses the theme from a song Morecombe and Wise used to sing. I must add that I have never met anyone who agrees with me on this topic, or any other topic for that matter, but it hasn't dampened my enthusiasm for such views.
Sometimes, your madness manages to make the move from mildly irritating to mildly amusing. But only sometimes .....
Fri, May 3 2013, 4:46PM
#4
RE: Wagner's Ring Cycle.
Ian, I 'd strongly second Parla's suggestion of the double CD issued by Decca. It is a superb talk by Deryck Cooke (he who completed the Mahler 10th symphony), illustrated by short excerpts from the Solti set. It starts very simply, just as the leitmotifs themselves do at the outset, and explains brilliantly the developing complexity of music and text. You never know, you may find a cheap copy somewhere!
Thinking back to when I first started on the Ring, in those days I had no money and first heard it in Solti's recording via records borrowed from the local library, without charge! Those were the days.
One book that I'd recommend for a sensible, readable and thorough account is Ernest Newman's Wagner Nights. Newman was one of the greatest writers on Wagner (and much else besides). About half the book is given over to the Ring. A new copy would be more expensive than your CDs but I see on Amazon some second hand copies at very reasonable prices. You may even find it free on line.
Good listening, and good reading!
Chris
Fri, May 3 2013, 6:24PM
#5
RE: Wagner's Ring Cycle.
Thanks Chris. The trouble with borrowing from the library, is whether the person before you hasn't scratched the cd, and then getting blamed for doing it. I have the same trouble when borrowing books, very annoying.
Fri, May 3 2013, 8:23PM
#6
RE: Wagner's Ring Cycle.
Indeed you're right Ian. How I remember that: and how much worse it was in the days of LPs. In the end though, I used the library so much that they began to trust me!
Anyway, it's Good Friday in Orthodox Greece so no Ring today. Time for Parsifal.
Chris
Fri, May 3 2013, 9:05PM
#7
RE: Wagner's Ring Cycle.
I can't remember if I mentioned this before, but there is a truly amazing Parsifal on youtube at the moment. It is from Bayreuth 2012. Incredible cast, mind-blowing production, gorgeous sound. Superb quality upload for youtube.
Fri, May 3 2013, 9:21PM
#8
RE: Wagner's Ring Cycle.
I don't think you'd mentioned it before Jane, but many thanks anyway - just in perfect time!
Sat, May 4 2013, 2:04AM
#9
RE: Wagner's Ring Cycle.
If the ring is about anything then it is about the fall of the landed classes and middle class culture and the rise of the working classes and light entertainment. Aided by naive middle class liberals and the BBC. The ring is stamped with references all the way through it. There is even a section that uses the theme from a song Morecombe and Wise used to sing. I must add that I have never met anyone who agrees with me on this topic, or any other topic for that matter, but it hasn't dampened my enthusiasm for such views.
I think you'll find you views are similar to those of George Bernard Shaw, although possibly with a differing conclusion!
For those getting to know the ring I do think Shaw's 'The Perfect Wagnerite' is a pretty compelling general introduction to the ring. Yes it is the cycle seen through one particular set of eyes but it is a wise and effortlessly ingratiating introduction. Added to which it is available online free... here
Sat, May 4 2013, 7:24AM
#10
RE: Wagner's Ring Cycle.
If a young beginner of Wagner's music reads the suggested Shaw's "view" on the composer and anything related to him, he may become the "perfect anti-Wagnerite".
Even for a man of nearly forty years of listening to Wagner, I find Shaw's view much less "ingratiating" and less "compelling". (I say that because I'm not British, among other reasons).
Parla
Sat, May 4 2013, 8:28AM
#11
RE: Wagner's Ring Cycle.
Great idea Naupilus. Yes, Shaw's writing may not travel well, but its unique style still reads well today for British, or at least English, readers. I read it years ago and it certainly never remotely put me off Wagner!! It's less informative than Newman but much more entertaining. I don't think you need worry Ian that it will lessen your enjoyment of Wagner!
I feel sure that the Newman book should be available somewhere online too but I can't find it. Sorry.
Chris
PS: Jane, I'm listening to the 2012 Parsifal. Thanks - I'll report back later!
Sat, May 4 2013, 9:20AM
#12
RE: Wagner's Ring Cycle.
FWIW the Cooke/Wagner talk can be found on Spotify
I know folks here are more into CD but - especially if you choose a subscription and exclude ads - Spotify really is a great way both to sample and hear music, especially in cases where you want to hear something you would not necessarily want to hear again.
Sat, May 4 2013, 11:47AM
#13
RE: Wagner's Ring Cycle.
If a young beginner of Wagner's music reads the suggested Shaw's "view" on the composer and anything related to him, he may become the "perfect anti-Wagnerite".
Even for a man of nearly forty years of listening to Wagner, I find Shaw's view much less "ingratiating" and less "compelling". (I say that because I'm not British, among other reasons).
Parla
Each to his own - I certainly feel that the start of my interest in Wagner was strengthened by Shaw's warm view of The Ring - the first section, which gently pokes fun at the Brits in Bayreuth, always puts me in mind of some of those I have sat with at Covent Graden.
For those that have not taken a look I would also recommend Robert Donington's 'Wagner's "Ring" and its Symbols' which presents a Jungian analysis of the work. Again, very much a singular perspective by written with a clear love for the works, which comes through so well.
Sat, May 4 2013, 7:31PM
#14
RE: Wagner's Ring Cycle.
P.S.: I agree with 50m. We have already had several previous threads on the "Ring" in this forum.
So what?
Sat, May 4 2013, 8:27PM
#15
RE: Wagner's Ring Cycle.
If a young beginner of Wagner's music reads the suggested Shaw's "view" on the composer and anything related to him, he may become the "perfect anti-Wagnerite".
Even for a man of nearly forty years of listening to Wagner, I find Shaw's view much less "ingratiating" and less "compelling". (I say that because I'm not British, among other reasons).
Parla
This isn't the same Shaw that thought Stalin was the perfect humanitarian is it. He couldn't be wrong twice could he. A socialist too, make that 3.
Ah... it is indeed. It only goes to prove, as Osgood Fiedling III put it, "Well, nobody's perfect". Shaw was also opposed to vaccination for smallpox and was quite keen on eugenics. Add in the vegitarianism and it becomes clear that he was very close to being the perfect Wagnerite.
Ian, you have to read and listen enough about a work of such grandiose and complex proportions. Jane gave a you a concise account to start with.
A must have double CD is the one Decca had released, almost at the same time as the "reference" Ring by Solti. It is called "An introduction to Der Ring", containing enough explanatory material to comprehend the "complete work" (Das Gesamtwerk"; it's not just an Opera), follow the story and the music. It might cost you as much as you spend for the whole "Ring" you just bought, though.
Going to another matter, I wonder whether "all delusions of grandeur will ultimately be rewarded with destruction and oblivion" has anything to do with the "Ring" and much more with the actual life. As for the "Ring", I found all the "heroes" so humanly vulnerable that any facet of "grandeur" is only for the colour not the message or the purpose. I believe the actual message of the "Ring" is the human nature and its flaws versus the power of the soul and mind, thus, leading to the responsibility of the decisions we have to make and the price we have to pay, no matter who we are. In this, there is nothing actually pessimistic.
As for the real life, I know a great number of people, who literally enjoy all sorts of grandeur for generations without any sign of an ultimate destruction or falling to oblivion. Besides, there is no sign when or even whether the current collective delusion of grandeur will ultimately be rewarded with any sort of destruction. Much more with oblivion. History has already rewarded, with indelible ink, the Ancient Greek Hegemony and the Roman Empire, to refer to two very Classic examples of excessive collective "delusions of grandeur".
Parla