What Are The Most Significant Works Classical Music?
Wed, Sep 22 2010, 1:14PM
#2
RE: What Are The Most Significant Works Classical Music?
Anywhere without the music of Bela Bartok, Alban Berg, Hector Berlioz; Frank Bridge, Harrison Birtwistle, George Benjamin, Benjamin Britten or Pierre Boulez, sounds like a real desert to me.
Sat, Sep 25 2010, 12:07AM
#3
RE: What Are The Most Significant Works Of Classical Music?
SpiderJon "Music is more available now than it's ever been, and the opportunities for listening to an incredible range of composers and performers is mind-boggling."
yes, and thank god for that! Back in the day, only the upper class people could expirience classical music. Nowadays, any average schmuck(such as myself) can turn on thier Ipod and listen to Beethoven's ninth any time they feel like it.
SpiderJon "you'll never listen to the sum total of what everyone thinks are the "most significant" works"
Thats obviously true. However, a person a person entering any area of study should have a good historical perspective of the significant events of that field(in this case classical music). Then after enough researching, you can see which composers have been the most interesting to you(for me it would be Debussy, Schubert, Stravinsky)
SpiderJon "there may be numerous different "best" performances of the "most significant" works"
Its true that how we judge a certain work is based on the performances we're listened to of that work. But, even if the performances very, you can still get a sence of which works were more significant than others.
SpiderJon"(Plus you need time to listen music other than "classical", of course - it's not the only music there is!)."
I could not agree with you more here. I listen to all kinds of music and from what I've expirenced, there is good and bad music in every genre including "classical". Although, classical music often tends to be more sophisticated and disregards its appeal to the masses, which is no doubt why critics have more respect for classical music.
However, the greatness of the masterpieces of other genres, such as jazz and rock, cannot be overstated. Albums such as Charles Mingus’s “The Black Saint And The Sinner Lady” and Captain Beefheart’s “Trout Mask Replica” were absolute genius. Faust's first album "Faust" is most significant album in the history of rock music. It defied every law or stereotype of the rock genre. I can say without any hesitation at all that "Faust" was just as innovative as Stravinsky’s “The Rite Of Spring”, Debussy’s “Prélude À L'Après-Midi D'Un Faune”, and Beethoven’s “Symphony No. 9”. Due to the wild avantgarde nature of the album, you never hear about it(I blame the rock critics of course) Even heavy metal, a genre which is often panned by rock critics, has some great music lurking underground that ussually remains unnoticed by the rock critics(which does'nt surprise me at all)
In my opinion, one should never be confined to a certain "genre" of music. It just seems silly to me, since you'd be missing out on allot of great music.
Sat, Sep 25 2010, 5:26PM
#4
RE: What Are The Most Significant Works Of Classical Music?
However, the greatness of the masterpieces of other genres, such as jazz and rock, cannot be overstated.
Oh yes it can. And daily is, in the mass media!
In my opinion, one should never be confined to a certain "genre" of music. It just seems silly to me, since you'd be missing out on allot of great music.
'Classical' isn't a genre, however. There's a huge difference between orchestral and opera, or organ music and chamber; or Baroque and Renaissance or Baroque and Romantic, or early 20th and late 20th century music. Lumping these all together is absurd; there are more similarities between any two kinds of pop/rock than any of those I've just listed.
Sat, Sep 25 2010, 9:47PM
#5
RE: What Are The Most Significant Works Of Classical Music?
Wigmaker “Oh yes it can. And daily is, in the mass media!”
If you think I was referring to the massively publicized, overproduced albums such as “The Joshua Tree” or “Thriller”, you are mistaken. The music industry publicizes cheap music to sell to the masses. They have no regard for history or culture, it’s all about the money. The industry thrives upon the ignorance of the youth(who are the victims here) to buy into it. Most of albums they recommend are devoid of any intellectual thought. There are much more significant and far-reaching albums by Captain Beefheart, Robert Wyatt, Frank Zappa, Faust, ect… that are still not immensely popular with the mass media.
As for Jazz music, I think masterpiece albums such as “A Love Supreme”, “The Black Saint And The Sinner Lady” and “Kind Of Blue” deserve every bit of their critical acclaim. Anybody with an admiration for Jazz would agree with me.
Wigmaker “'Classical' isn't a genre,..”
I agree. As long as you get my point that people shouldn’t be limited to certain types of music.
Wigmaker “there are more similarities between any two kinds of pop/rock than any of those I've just listed.”
Not true at all. Rock music is just as diverse as any other form of music. Perhaps the rock music played on the radio is all the same, which is why I haven’t listened to the radio in the past six years. The truth is, there is an explosive amount of interesting rock music, you just never hear about it. You see, unlike jazz and classical music, you have to do a lot research to find great Rock music. Here’s some albums I’ve come to admire:
Of The 60’s:Captain Beefheart “Trout Mask Replica”, The Doors “The Doors”, Van Morrison “Astral Weeks”, and Pink Floyd “The Piper At The Gates Of Dawn”
Of The 70’s: Robert Wyatt “Rock Bottom", Soft Machine “Third”, Popol Vuh “Hosianna Mantra”, Nico “Desertshore”, Klaus Sclulze "Irrlicht", and Faust “Faust”
Of The 80’s: Sonic Youth “Daydream Nation”, Peter Frohmader “Through Time And Mystery – Ending”, and Metallica “Master Of Puppets”
Of The 90’s: My Bloody Valentine “Loveless”, Slint “Spiderland”, Hash Jar Tempo “Well Oiled”
Mon, Sep 27 2010, 8:37AM
#6
RE: What Are The Most Significant Works Classical Music?
I'm tempted to argue that the most significant works can be identified and can be seen in 'The Gramophone Classical Music Guide'. The problem with that is that Balakauskas and Branca are not included there, perhaps because they are not 'significant' enough, but possibly because they have not come to the attention of the guide reviewers. I think we should be told.
By the way frostwalrus - have you tried music streaming site 'Spotify'? It's priority is not classical, but is does have examples of Balakauskas and Branca, so someone there thinks they're 'significant' enough to be included.
Thanks for a stimulating topic - I'm going to try out some of your rock music suggestions on Spotify next.
Tue, Sep 28 2010, 6:05AM
#7
RE: What Are The Most Significant Works of Classical Music?
CAUTION: The albums I've listed above are not your average ordinary rock albums(which is why I listen to them!). So if you are going to try out some Captain Beefheart or Faust do NOT expect anything like the Beatles or Led Zeppelin. You are about to engage in entirely new, expiremental approaches to rock music. In fact, most of the musically squeamish people will not survive the first minute of "Faust". But, never the less, these albums are just as complex and interesting as anything in classical music, and just as in classical music, these take repeated listening to fully appreciate and its "endless in the secrets it slowly reveals".
Now you could just as easily get a super popular, easy listenin' album by U2(a band that rarely steps out of the traditional verse-chorus-verse pop song format) and enjoy it upon first listen. But, after a few listens your appreciation for it deteriorates, as you begin to see how simple the music is and then you grow bored with it (which is common with pop music).
If you ever get into "Rock Bottom", its doubtfull that you'll ever grow bored with it. You'll see that Robert Wyatt displays far greater depth both musically and lyrically on "Rock Bottom" than any album by U2. The famous story behind the album is that Wyatt had fallen from a fourth story window at a party and became paralyzed from the waste down and apparently wrote the music during the long period of time of being hospitalized. With his deeply personal messages "Your lunacy fits neatly with my own" you can sence the unbearable strain Wyatt was facing at the time as he desends deeper into madness throughout the album. And it all ends with the explosive last track where Wyatt unleashes his symphonic elements to a devastating effect. This is where you know he has truely reached rock bottom and its as emotionally intense as anything by Tchaikovski, it sends shivers down my spine each time I listen to it. If you ever give this album a listen, you'll probably end up ejoying it for the rest of your life.
However, as for the albums I've listed in the above post, for your own safety, I'd check out the more melodic, accessible albums first such as "Astral Weeks", "Hosianna Mantra", "Rock Bottom", and "Spiderland".And save "Trout Mask Replica" and "Faust" for later, which are extremely challenging, rough sounding albums.
Oh, and thanks for the heads up about Spotify. I'll have to check that out!
Tue, Sep 28 2010, 11:08AM
#8
RE: What Are The Most Significant Works Classical Music?
Thanks for the words of caution frostwalrus.
I like this which appears in Wikipedia:
'Recently the verb "Wyatting" appeared in some blogs and music
magazines to describe the practice of playing weird tracks on a pub
jukebox to annoy the other pub goers.
Robert Wyatt was quoted in The Guardian: as saying "I think it's really funny," and "I'm very honoured at the idea of becoming a verb."
However, when asked if he would ever try it himself, he said "Oh no. I
don't really like disconcerting people. Although often when I try to be
normal I disconcert anyway."'
I note that 'Rock Bottom' is from 1974 - I guess I would have been listening to Abba around that time! Anyway, I'll let you know how I get on.
Tue, Sep 28 2010, 11:31AM
#9
RE: What Are The Most Significant Works Classical Music?
'The Rough Guide to Classical Music' (2005) has this in the introduction:
'...it's an A-Z survey of over 200 of the most significant composers in the history of western music.....each composer gets a short but fact-filled biography, which is followed by a discussion of each of their most important works, along with reviews of recommended recordings.'
The Gramophone Guide (2010) has this in the foreword:
'In the pages that follow you'll encounter recordings from across the entire spectrum of the recorded music business, and each one has been produced with the same philosophy - a shared belief that the artist has something worthwhile to say about the music he or she is performing and that the public will enjoy that interpretation'.
So there it is - 2 honourable guides but with different emphasis.
'
Tue, Sep 28 2010, 7:52PM
#10
RE: What Are The Most Significant Works Of Classical Music?
"Wyatting" I didn't know that. lol Thats hilarious! I can understand that though. Ingenious musicians such as Robert Wyatt have unique way of self-expression that often comes off as strange to most people. But, nevertheless, "Rock Bottom"still displays an infinate amount of emotional depth and deserves the utmost respect of any serious music listener. If however, you're not too drawn to Wyatt's style, keep in mind that every album I have mentioned here is entirely unique. If you wern't crazy about "Rock Bottom" or "Trout Mask Replica", don't be discouraged. There's still a good chance you'll like some of the other albums I've mentioned.
"Hosianna Mantra" is similar to Filmscore music. This is music made in heaven, simalar to the effect Bach had on me when I listened to his Mass In B Minor. "Spiderland" a landmark album in the underground movement, with dark undercurrents that seem to foreshadow a tragic fate, or elludes to the effect of chasing after a distant memory of something that had or hadn't happened in futile attempt to relive that long lost moment. Possibly the darkest album ever made, but also the best album ever made. As for "Astral Weeks", no introduction needed. Just about every critic applauds the record. Enjoy!
Wed, Sep 29 2010, 8:27AM
#11
RE: What Are The Most Significant Works Classical Music?
I have to take issue with some of the things said in this thread. First of all I must say I am a lover of all types of music, but saying that I think all comparisons of rock music and classical music are ultimately redundant. Usually generalisations about anything are based on ignorance of what is being generalised. People who say all rock music is rubbish have heard very little of it, they don´t like what they have heard so they don´t investigate further, equally anyone who says rock music is just as complex as classical music can´t have much knowledge of the repertoire, becase if they did, I don´t believe they could ever say such a thing.
If you take as a random starting point Heartbreak Hotel, rock music has a heritage of 56 years, jazz a century more or less, and classical music in its Western form a thousand years, that´s a lot with which to familiarise yourself before one can make generalisations for the greatness or complexity of rock music.
Very very few rock musicians can read or write music, this in no way means they are better or worse musicians, but it does mean they are incredibly limited in what they can consciously compose. In this respect it is like comparing amateurs to professionals.
Rock music has it roots in dance music, in rhythm, or popular storytelling if you want to include the folk tradition, it makes its initial appeal through energy which is why it is so popular with teenagers undergoing puberty, I can still remember. For me any rock music that strays too far from these roots, and tries to be too cerebral invariably ends up as self important drivvle, like the worst excesses of prog rock. The great prog rock albums like early Yes or Genesis are great because they didn´t stray too far from their blues rock roots, when they did for example in Tales from Topographic Oceans the results were abysmal.
You have mentioned Trout Mask Replica one of my all time favourites. It´s an album made by a group of extremely talented musicians who were able to improvise with atonal melodies and harmonies and Drumbo was able to support them with incredible asymetric rhythms, but for me it works because Beefheart never loses his foothold in the raw power of the blues. It´s the unleashing of this energy which is the crux of Trout Mask Replica. This album has no score it was not composed note for note, and if you asked the musicians to explain why they played any given note in any particular moment, they wouldn´t be able to answer, or they would give some very vague answer because they were improvising most of the time.
Now compare this to another work written in the desert not so far away about twenty years earlier, Elliott Carter´s first String Quartet. This was written by one man working alone. It´s about 50 minutes long, and if you look at the score or try to play it it´s frigtening. Every single note in the score was consciously chosen after much deliberation as to its melodic, harmonic and rhythmic context, as to how it would fit in with the overall structure, which incorporated a whole new concept of rhythmic modulation, as compared to traditional harmonic modulation. If you ask Mr. Carter to explain the reason or significance of any note in this score, he will do so most eloquently, the great man is still alive. Nothing in rock music ever approaches this level of intellectual rigour or craftmanship enabled by years of study. This is just one example, but what I´m saying applies to any work you care to mention from a Monteverdi opera to Pierre Boulez´s Sur Incises. I mention this last one as there is a great DVD where he plays and explains the work.
You said Faust´s first album broke every stereotype in rock, but does that mean it´s any good, for me no. Again, if you asked them to explain the structure or reason for the choice of individual notes in Why don´t you eat carrots? I´m pretty sure they would give you some vague pseudo intellectual answer. Anything that Faust did was done over 20 years earlier in the electronic studios in Darmstadt, Cologne, and Paris with the great composers of musique concrete all working with an intellectual framework, and highly skilled craftsmanship.
Loveless, another glorious album, but basically simple song structures played through heavily distorted guitars, and overdubbed dozens maybe hundreds of times. it´s not rocket science and certainly no revolution. Madame George from Astral Weeks is a nine minute consistent repitition of the three most basic chords in music, the tonic, sub dominant, and dominant, the basis of all nursery rhymes, and children´s songs. It´s a magical song, but couldn´t be simpler, that´s why it works.
To compare any of these with for example Stravinsky hammering out an entirely new conception of rhythm on a battered old piano, and writing it all down note for note, with the whole melodic, harmonic, orchestrally layered totality in his head, frankly for me is just absurd.
In the world of rock music there are many geniuses, on the level of musicians, performers, and songwriters, but there are no great composers.
I remember years ago in a lecture George Steiner said that classical music was intrinsically better than rock or pop. I don´t agree with this, mainly because I think it´s impossible to prove, and better is a value judgement, and ultimately subjective. The joy I have experienced over the years from all my old rock and jazz LPs is in no way inferior to the joy I receive from classical music, but I have always been aware of the fundamental difference that classical music is intrinsically more complex and difficult to write, and takes a degree of talent in its composition than anything in rock music.
Wed, Sep 29 2010, 1:19PM
#12
RE: What Are The Most Significant Works Classical Music?
Hi dubrob
A terrific post.
However... :-)
Whilst you mention both rock and jazz, you only really "dismiss" rock in terms of its 'complexity of composition' - eg,
In the world of rock music there are many geniuses, on the level of musicians, performers, and songwriters, but there are no great composers.
... The joy I have experienced over the years from all my old rock and jazz LPs is in no way inferior to the joy I receive from classical music, but I have always been aware of the fundamental difference that classical music is intrinsically more complex and difficult to write, and takes a degree of talent in its composition than anything in rock music.
I think jazz (using the term very broadly) would fare better, in terms of both complexity of composition* and innovation in musical expression.
* yes, I know some people might take issue with the idea of 'jazz' being 'composed', which would pretty much rule out Duke Ellington, but I don't see composition (also in a broad sense) as inimical to jazz.
Many jazz musicians are every bit as 'capable' as their classical counterparts, in terms of both playing and composing - indeed, some were/are classically trained.
I'd aver that there are some great composers in jazz - for example (but hardly limited to) Ellington, Mingus, Coltrane, Monk, Bley, Sun Ra, Miles Davis, Bill Evans - albeit that 'composer' might be a broader term in jazz than in classical music.
On that note, the article* WHAT IS A JAZZ COMPOSER? by Charles Mingus is well worth reading, as it's one of the best treatments of the complex relationship between jazz and composition around, not least because Mingus was not only one of the best jazz composers, but also one of the most eloquent and musically 'intellectual' (in a good way).
* it was actually the liner notes to "Let My Children Hear Music".
Wed, Sep 29 2010, 1:59PM
#13
RE: What Are The Most Significant Works Classical Music?
I quite agree Spider. Any jazz musician worth his salt can read and write music til the cows come home. Saying that I can´t think of anything in jazz that is as thoroughly composed as anything in classical, not that that means that anyone of the greats you mentioned wouldn´t have been able to compose in such a way. Thankfully improvisation has always remained the lifeblood of jazz, because when jazz loses its swing or groove it tends to lose me. There are some great exceptions though especially some of those Blue Note LPs from the 60´s like Dolphy´s Out To Lunch, wonderful stuff but still based on improvisation. I also agree that Mingus was an incredibly lucid and stimulating writer on music.
Thu, Sep 30 2010, 10:38AM
#14
RE: What Are The Most Significant Works Classical Music?
Excellent argument! Alot of what you've mentioned was true. I can agree with you that carefully constructed "writen" music show more virtue than improvised music, but not all of the time. I can see how the idea of something like "playing as you feel" as opposed to something pre-planned would seem inferior(I sometimes feel the same). And I'd also attest that master composers are far more consistant with their work than rock musicians(who usually briefly display incredible talent and then burn out after a couple of years from drugs and alcohol).
Also a fact, is that the entire foundation of Rock music is generally ignorant. Most audiences, as well as the musicians, do not know the full history of the roots of rock music. They often view rock music for as a form of entertainment instead of a serious art. Which is no doubt why its so popular with the youth. However, aside from that, one could argue that knowledge and the degree of intelligence are seperate and there have been many fairly talented rock musicions have risen in past, even if they were quite ignorant(though they definately shouldn't be).
You also mentioned the incapability of a musician to explain their work, eluding to fact that the artist is somehow inferior because of this. It may be possibly because their brians are fried from all the acid they did or maybe they just cannot fully explain their music. A great composer(who's name I can't remember at the moment) once quoted "Music picks up where words end" I don't think Beethoven's ninth can be fully explained(although I wouldn't say there's been rock music as indescribable as his ninth) Aside from this, I judge music by the level of quality being displayed on the album. Whether or not an artist is able to reflect upon the music does not factor in on the craftmanship I have observed on the album. Although one could definately have a better understanding of that work if they did elaborate on it.
As for the view of improvised music. Look at Light My Fire, one of the greatest rock songs of all time, the improvised guitar and keyboard duet of Manzerak and Kreiger is astonishing. It displays an almost transcendental effect. For those few minutes or less you feel how the doors could literally “set the night on fire!” Definitely one of the few moments where improvised music reaches the plateau of our respected composers. I’d say the music existed more in their minds as opposed to it being “written” down with pen and paper prior to the recording. I don’t think that makes it any lesser of a form of music. Also, the most respected guitarist in history, Jimi Hendrix, improvised allot. He was relentlessly innovative with the guitar and defied almost every pre-existing convention there was in rock music prior to his time. He probably didn’t think writing down the music could quite capture that flare that was churning in the back of his mind. He played the guitar with the same intensity and passion as the most respected jazz musicians. And in fact, he was also highly respected by most jazz musicians of his time. I’d say Jimi Hendrix broke a lot more grounds than most of the other popular bands of his time(such as the beatles or the stones). Another noteworthy guitarist would be John Fahey.
Classical music may be on a much higher spectrum in terms of its attention to detail. But, as spiderjon mentioned before, there is still more to music than just classical music. I was simply trying to show people that not all rock is the same. There are still many albums worth saving amoungst all of the garbage being poured out of music industry. Albums such as "Rock Bottom", "Faust", and "Trout Mask Replica" remains as some of the towering achievements of rock music, regardless of what you thought of them. You are right that I am ignorant of the history of classical musica. I don't possess the knowledge of music that a professor such as George Steiner may have. I can also admit I was a bit to quick to draw comparisons(of greatness not of the style) to the works of Stravinsky, probably because I was over eager to emphasize thier importance. I can see the rock albums I've mentioned are not well thought of on this forum, so therefore I won't mention anything else until I am much more knoweledgable of music.
However, in conclusion for the topic here, you say improvised music does not show as much intellectual thought as composed music, however, I say once in a blue moon, it can. And I think its important to acknowelege those few moments.
Thu, Sep 30 2010, 5:10AM
#15
RE: What Are The Most Significant Works Classical Music?
I believe that it would be beneficial to stick to the question which was "What are the most significant works in classical music" .
In my opinion it would be good to add the following to the initial list by frostwalrus:
- Rachmaninov's Piano Concertos 1 & 2
- Everything by Chopin - I guess I'm a big fan of his work
- Vivadi's Four Seasons
From the recording's point of view: I've started a topic in the Recording's section of this forum. I'm looking forward to your replies :)
How about the game "If you had to take to a desert island only the composers beginning with one letter, which letter would you choose?"
(Mine is "S" not "B".....)
Andy