What Are The Most Significant Works Classical Music?
Wed, Oct 6 2010, 10:04PM
#2
RE: What Are The Most Significant Works Classical Music?
Ccompletely disagree. You don´t need to have any analytical knowledge of classical music to enjoy it but you most certainly do to understand it, and by understanding it as best you can your enjoyment of it will be increased tenfold.
Being able to follow a score is a wonderful insight into what a composer is doing, the choices he or she makes, how they realise or defy your expectations, why they chose that note and not another, why they finished with that chord and that combination of instruments brings never ending pleasure. Seeing how themes develop, connect, reappear is all wonderful stuff.
I don´t believe listening to a Nielsen symphony 100 times in a briiliant recording will help you to understand the piece as much as reading an analysis by the great Robert Simpson.
I can´t read music to any kind of proficiency, so when I was a young lad getting into classical music, I went to the library and read every tome I could get my hands on about sonata form, fugue, orchestration. This became even more of a help with 20th century music so much of which I believe can never be appreciated without some study on the part of the listener. As a general introduction to this area of music I would recommend Paul Griffith´s Modern Music, Arnold Whittall´s Composition in the 20th century, I think it´s called, and Simon Rattle´s documentary series Leaving Home.
The analogy with film doesn´t wash for me. There is nothing as radically different between the making and structure of a film and a TV advert, as there is between an advertising jingle and a Boulez Piano Sonata. Film is an immensely popular medium, classical music isn´t for this very reason. People can watch films in a language they don´t understand, and still understand the film to a large extent, I don´t believe the same is true for somebody with no knowledge of music and a Beethoven symphony. It´s for this reason that so many people say it´s boring or it all sounds the same, it´s a language they don´t understand. While people can learn to speak a foreign languge through listening alone their grammar and writing will be rubbish. If you really want to get inside a language the best way is to learn the grammar, for me the same applies to music.
Wed, Oct 6 2010, 10:09PM
#3
RE: What Are The Most Significant Works Classical Music?
One last thing speaking of Gramophone, in the old days the reviews were called analytical notes and reviews, not to mention other analytical articles.
Wed, Oct 6 2010, 11:50PM
#4
RE: What Are The Most
Frostwalrus (sorry for the delay in responding; I'm not really a forum kind of person so I only look in here when I look at the Gramophone site)
Wigmaker “Oh yes it can. And daily is, in the mass media!”
If you think I was referring to the massively publicized, overproduced albums such as “The Joshua Tree” or “Thriller”, you are mistaken. The music industry publicizes cheap music to sell to the masses. They have no regard for history or culture, it’s all about the money. The industry thrives upon the ignorance of the youth(who are the victims here) to buy into it. Most of albums they recommend are devoid of any intellectual thought. There are much more significant and far-reaching albums by Captain Beefheart, Robert Wyatt, Frank Zappa, Faust, ect… that are still not immensely popular with the mass media.
I was referring to any pop/rock album/single by the latest Big Thing - and to anything considered 'classic' by the industry mavens and/or Joe Public in general. So, mainly the most commercial stuff churned out, but also the Zappas and the Beatleses which, to my ears at least, don't sound much more special.
As for Jazz music, I think masterpiece albums such as “A Love Supreme”, “The Black Saint And The Sinner Lady” and “Kind Of Blue” deserve every bit of their critical acclaim. Anybody with an admiration for Jazz would agree with me.
I've listened to (and once owned) the second and third of those you mention - I gave them away in the end because I found them boring. I suppose I lost my jazz mojo or something!
Wigmaker “'Classical' isn't a genre,..”
I agree. As long as you get my point that people shouldn’t be limited to certain types of music.
Personally, I think people should listen to whatever they like for whatever reasons they like.
Wigmaker “there are more similarities between any two kinds of pop/rock than any of those I've just listed.”
Not true at all. Rock music is just as diverse as any other form of music. Perhaps the rock music played on the radio is all the same, which is why I haven’t listened to the radio in the past six years. The truth is, there is an explosive amount of interesting rock music, you just never hear about it. You see, unlike jazz and classical music, you have to do a lot research to find great Rock music. Here’s some albums I’ve come to admire:
Of The 60’s:Captain Beefheart “Trout Mask Replica”, The Doors “The Doors”, Van Morrison “Astral Weeks”, and Pink Floyd “The Piper At The Gates Of Dawn”
Of The 70’s: Robert Wyatt “Rock Bottom", Soft Machine “Third”, Popol Vuh “Hosianna Mantra”, Nico “Desertshore”, Klaus Sclulze "Irrlicht", and Faust “Faust”
Of The 80’s: Sonic Youth “Daydream Nation”, Peter Frohmader “Through Time And Mystery – Ending”, and Metallica “Master Of Puppets”
Of The 90’s: My Bloody Valentine “Loveless”, Slint “Spiderland”, Hash Jar Tempo “Well Oiled”
I appreciate the effort of your list, and I confess I've only ever heard 4 of them (and quite a long time ago now). But really all you're doing is telling everyone about the stuff you like. Some people will say it has more merit than other rock/pop music, but some - I for one - will say I find it all equally uninteresting - just as you or someone else would say they find all hiphop/country/R&B samey and trite.
You say "Rock music is just as diverse as any other form of music." I'd say it probably is *more* diverse than most other pop forms - it has a longer history, so it ought to be! And then I'd say that 'classical' music (taking it as a genre for the sake of argument) has 10 or 11 centuries of invention & diversity to its credit beside which rock's 60-odd years pale almost into nothingness. And it shows (to me) whenever I listen to one against the other.
Thu, Oct 7 2010, 5:15AM
#5
RE: What Are The Most Significant Works of Classical Music?
Wigmaker "will say I find it all equally uninteresting"
That’s fine. You’re entitled to like whatever you want to like. I'm not trying convince anyone here to start listening to rock or jazz music. Everything I've mentioned in this forum has been based on a simple act of observation. I analyze the structure of album and then compare it to everything that has been done before it. From what I've observed, albums such as “Hosianna Mantra” and “Third” were remarkable in comparison to most other music I’ve come across. If everyone were to tell me these albums were dull, that’s fine, it wouldn’t change my opinion of them. From the musical wasteland that is rock/pop music, I have discovered some impressive albums that defy many of that stereotypes that many people(including myself) detest with the genre. Spiderjon mentioned in the begining of this forum "you need time to listen music other than "classical", of course - it's not the only music there is!" I agree with him, which is why I mentioned some rock albums I felt were worthy of acknowledgement. If you guys don't admire what I have mentioned here, thats fine. People keep telling about how much more interesting classical music is than rock music. For the most part that may be true, but I've found some classical compositions that were rather uneventful. All I'm saying is not everything in rock music is crap and not everything I've listened to in classical music (so far) has been all that impressive (although most of it has been). Nobody here is obligated to agree with me.
On that note, since everybody shot down the albums I've mentioned, if there is anybody here who still thinks there may have been a few rock albums worth noting, I’d be interested in listening to them.
Wigmaker “I'd say that 'classical' music has 10 or 11 centuries of invention & diversity ”
If there’s anything about me, it’s that I’m honest. It would be wrong for me to say rock music has been as diverse as classical, since I know so little about classical music. Which is the entire reason why I’m here in the first place. I can admit that its pointless to draw comparisons between types of music that simply do not compare. Its also true that the history of rock music is no where near as diverse and extensive as that of classical music. And unfortunately, as long as rock music remains (for the most part) as an unintelligent medium used for entertainment in pop culture, its greatness will probably never be on the level of classical music.
Wigmaker “just as you or someone else would say they find all hiphop/country/R&B samey and trite.”
That’s probably true. However, if there is anything I’ve learned over the years its that there is always some great music lurking behind every genre. Most hip-hop I’ve heard hasn’t been terribly interesting, especially the crap played on the radio. In a rare case, if I were to stumble upon a masterpiece of hip-hop, I would acknowledge it as such. But I probably will never search through hip-hop in order to find that masterpiece. To me its just not worth it. Just as admirers of classical music wouldn’t sift through all of the garbage of rock music to find something worthwhile from that genre.
Thu, Oct 7 2010, 3:47AM
#6
RE: What Are The Most Significant Works Classical Music?
I agree with CraigM. You don’t really need a book to experience the extraordinary and divine power of classical music. In fact allot of it goes beyond explanation. I guess it all depends on what values you seek in music.
However I feel completely “illiterate” here. I didn’t have the luxury of being brought up on classical music. I am a bit upset with my lack of musical education. I’d like to get a better understanding of the basic techniques and concepts behind classical music. I could go on for an hour explaining how incredible Mahler’s ninth symphony is with its almost unfathomable beauty. I could comprehend its musical structure in my mind, but I couldn’t really describe it in technical terms. I also kind of feel that my scope on classical music has somehow been compromised because of this lack of knowledge of the basic fundamentals.
Also, reading detailed analyses can give you a greater understanding of certain composers. A few people mentioned to me that Mozart’s music can be difficult to appreciate. If one were to read a book by an author who specializes on Mozart, they could probably get a better understanding of his compositions. As in my case, I’d probably need to read some journals about Stockhausen. His works completely elude me.
Thu, Oct 7 2010, 10:30AM
#7
RE: What Are The Most Significant Works Classical Music?
frostwalrus - 'scholarly' - you might like the book I'm reading now. It's by Bayan Northcott - 'The Way We Listen Now and Other Writings on Music (Poetics of Music).'
Bayan seems to circulate among the scholarly - he is pictured in 1960 with Stephen Hawking. So far, I have enjoyed his article about the use (or lack of use) of the metronome, so basic fundamentals are covered. He also lists books and CDs relevant to his articles.
Thu, Oct 7 2010, 5:12PM
#8
RE:
dubrob
You slightly misunderstand what I was saying. Frostwalrus was asking for guidance in getting into classical music for the first time – and my response was that seeking out scholarly articles is not the place to start. The only way to start understanding any music is simply to listen to as much of it as possible.
And I certainly wasn’t saying that scholarly analysis has no purpose – of course not. But who would seriously advise someone to read all the academic/historical/musicological material available to read on, say, Bach’s cantatas, without listening to them first? OK, once you have heard a few cantatas and you start getting more interested in them, you might then choose to explore them in greater depth, including studying the standard scholarly works – but that will always be the second stage, not the first.
Plus I can’t accept your statement that you can’t understand a Beethoven symphony without some formal study or a theoretical knowledge of music. If people think that Beethoven is boring, it’s not because they don’t know the difference between a fugue and a sonata, or between a diminished seventh chord and a inverted subdominant - it’s because they don’t know how to listen. Surrounded as we are by two-minute pop songs which are designed to hook you immediately and then disappear, it takes effort to listen properly to a lengthy piece of music which doesn’t have lyrics (or lyrics in a foreign language). You can read as many scholarly tomes as you wish, but if you don’t know how to listen, you’ll get nowhere.
Thu, Oct 7 2010, 5:14PM
#9
RE: RE: What Are The Most Significant Works Classical Music?
frostwalrus
You shouldn’t worry about your lack of formal musical education – of course being able to identify a passacaglia or a ritornello will give you the ability to describe how a piece of music is built up, but a knowledge of technical terms isn’t necessary to appreciate music (any more than you need a detailed knowledge of iambic pentameter to appreciate Shakespeare). Music was written in order to be listened to rather than analysed and for an audience who had little or no formal musical training – so there’s no need to feel that your ‘illiteracy’ lets you down. Comprehending a musical structure is far more important than being able to describe it in technical terms.
I do agree that detailed analysis can enhance your understanding of music but there’s no need to get into the technical journals. As an idea, you might want to check out the nine podcasts which Bramwell Tovey did, one on each of Beethoven’s symphonies. Very informative and informal – and hardly a technical term in sight!
They’re available on ITunes and at http://www.cbc.ca/radio2/features/beethoven/feature-beethoven-podcasts.html
Thu, Oct 7 2010, 8:46PM
#10
RE: What Are The Most Significant Works Classical Music?
CraigM, you say that the only way to start understanding any music is to listen to it as much as possible, and then you say that if people think Beethoven is boring it´s because they don´t know how to listen. How can anybody listen as much as possible if they don´t know how to listen?, it´s a total contradiction in terms.
They don´t know how to listen because they don´t know what they are listening for. Classical music doesn´t hook people like pop music. Of course there are many pieces of classical music that can make an instant impact on people, but I firmly believe that people who enjoy the opening of the Moonlight Sonata for example won´t enjoy the whole sonata or bother listening to the rest of it because they don´t understand why it goes on so long, why it´s in three parts and so on. This is exactly what happened to me when I first heard the Emperor concerto, my introduction to classical music. When I first heard it, it made next to no impression on me. Then when I read an explanation of sonata form, and was told to listen to the first theme, then the lyrical second, then how these develop and come back at the end; I was glued to the turntable, and then the fun began comparing how other composers worked their own individual magic with the same basic tools.
You also said it takes effort to listen properly. This doesn´t sound like a pleasure or any fun, because to sit for half an hour or more in a chair listening to random noise after random noise isn´t any fun, and will certainly not make you want to repeat the experience, however if somebody explains to you the basics of what´s going on it´s a completely different experience. This is exactly what happened with my wife. When we met she couldn´t stand classical music or understand why I liked it, but through explanation and comparative examples she now happily accompanies me to concerts and has become quite a discerning judge of the relevant merits of different works and composers.
For this reason I applaud and highly recommend any young person, or anyone knew to classical music to inform yourself as much as possible. I agree that fundamentally it´s all about listening, but hearing and listening are very different things,
Thu, Oct 7 2010, 10:34PM
#11
RE: What Are The Most Significant Works Classical Music?
Craigm I'm glad you clarified that, because I up to then my response would have been exactly as dubrob's first.
Perhaps the difference is your starting point. I have zero musical education and came to classical from rock. Sure, I could enjoy much of what I heard simply by listening, but my appreciation of classical music has been enhanced hugely by reading about it. The Pelican series was an immense help back in the day because it was pitched primarily at people like me - newcomers to the genre who wanted a bit of road map both to the world of classical music as a whole and to individual composers/compositions. To paraphrase Robert Simpson I wouldn't have known a second subject from a rissole, nor where to start between Bach and Rubbra.
Probably all of us find particular composers easy to figure out - I've read very little on Sibelius but to me his music is instantly appealing and its structure/logic very clear. On the other hand it wasn't until I was sitting soaking in the bath one day listening to a radio analysis of the last movement of Mozart's K491 that the whole Mozart light went on. And I spent months following his 6th Symphony with the score in my hand before I really understood Mahler.
So I think there's a middle ground. Although listening is fundamental, for some composers a little reading, a few pointers from somebody who's made a lifetime study of the man, can be the key. That may apply particularly to modern music. I love the the architectural feel of Maxwell Davies' music, the sheer sound produced by Gerhard, but an analytical breakdown of what's happening and why would, I'm sure, add so much to my appreciation of these composers. Similarly with Carter, whose second quartet lived in my car's tape deck for three months before I could make out what was happening. There just isn't enough time, and and/or I lack the musical nous, to get out of all music what the composer put in by listening alone.
Fri, Oct 8 2010, 7:22AM
#12
RE: What Are The Most Significant Works Classical Music?
frostwalrus - 'The Penguin' guide is indeed a buying guide and I suppose it's main rival is 'The Gramophone' guide. You may need both if you want a rounded view of what the classical music 'establishment' think is significant. Of course, Classic FM and BBC Radio 3 have their own version of what's worth listening to, as do internet music streaming, downloading and CD sales websites.
'The Penguin' guide has this on the cover:
"The Collector's bible....you cannot go wrong with this guide.' Daily Telegraph
'The Gramophone' guide has:
'The authority of Gramophone's peerless list of reviewers is apparent on every page.' Daily Telegraph
Fri, Oct 8 2010, 10:15AM
#13
RE: What Are The Most Significant Works Classical Music?
One other point CraigM, you said that music was written to be listened to by people with no or very little formal music education. I can´t agree with this either. Right up til very recent times, classical music like all so called high culture was certainly not written for the masses, and was accessed only by the very privileged few in the upper and middle classes. Unlike today for anyone who grew up in that world formal music training as well as foreign languages was a fundamental part of any education. Every household had a piano, and a selection of short scores on which to play the music of the day.
This is why the Eroica, or later Wagner caused such a furore with the audiences of the day because it didn´t follow the rules they had learnt. If you play the opening of Cosi fan Tutte and then the opening of Tristan and Isolde to anyone today who knows nothing about classical music and tell them that the latter changed music forever because it was so radically different, they´ll probably say they both sound pretty similar to me, and if you tell them there was a riot at the premiere of the Rite of Spring, they´ll wonder what all the fuss was about. The rioters were people who knew their music.
It is lamentable that in the last few generations at a time when all culture is accessible to more people than ever before and musical education is needed more than ever for us to understand the great composers of our time, that governments in so many countries have deemed it unnecessary and an extracurricular activity for those so inclined. This is why a lot of people actually believe there are no composers alive today.
Fri, Oct 8 2010, 7:34PM
#14
RE: What Are The Most Significant Works Classical Music?
frostwalrus - 'The Penguin' guide is indeed a buying guide and I suppose it's main rival is 'The Gramophone' guide. "The Collector's bible....you cannot go wrong with this guide.' Daily Telegraph
They're excellent guides and great starting points for your own explorations as long as you keep in mind that we all, reviewers included, bring biases to the table. I find a little leavening from the website classicstoday.com doesn't hurt. It too has its biases, but between it and the two you mention you can get a useful cross-section of informed critical opinion.
Sat, Oct 9 2010, 11:52AM
#15
RE: What Are The Most Significant Works Classical Music?
Thanks for that tagalie, I didn't know about classicstoday.com.
Critics - wouldn't a professional critic have some sort of ethical plan to deal with bias?
I suppose the Penguin Guide is a buying guide, but the same is true of
Gramophone magazine - a review of available recordings which recommends
which are the best.
But slightly puzzled at your statement that you want to expand your
understanding of classical music so therefore you are looking for
scholarly analysis. I would argue that the best way to understand
classical music is by listening to as much of it as you can - and
listening to the best recordings is obviously better than listening to
anything else. You certainly don't need scholarly analysis to understand
classical music - any more than you need to read scholarly tomes of film
theory before you can go to the cinema.