Who were the great twentieth century symphonists?
Tue, May 24 2011, 4:20PM
#2
RE: Who were the great twentieth century symphonists?
Thanks to all for your replies and suggestions.
Sibelius Shostakovitch Neilsen Mahler Prokofiev Honegger Martinu Stravinsky Hartmann Korngold Magnard Dutilleux
Vaughan Williams Bax Tippett David Matthews Moeran Rubbra Brian Simpson Elgar Walton Rawsthorne Alwyn Berkeley Arnold Dyson
Lutoslawski Penderecki Panufnik Gorecki (what an achievement it was when the 3rd Symphony broke into the popular as well as the serious charts) Part Holmboe Tubin Pettersen Langgaard Aho Klami
Copland Harris Hanson Carter Schuman Barber Thompson Sessions Ives
There's a heck of a lot to explore! And eyeresist, I agree let's not forget Rachmaninov, whose first symphony I heard a couple of years ago in concert and it struck me as a powerful and dynamic work.
I now know more about who wrote decent symphonies in the twentieth-century. Still not so sure - without further listening it must be said - who the undisputed masters were!
Regards
Partsong
Wed, May 25 2011, 8:50AM
#3
RE: Who were the great twentieth century symphonists?
Someone who isn't often thought of as a symphonist, but who wrote four pieces called "Symphony" (or "Sinfonia"), three of which are undoubted masterpieces, is Britten. (To my humble ears, the Cello Symphony is the finest concertante piece for cello ever written, although I'm preparing to be shot down by enraged Elgarians/Dvořákians/Haydnfans etc.)
DF
Wed, May 25 2011, 7:44PM
#4
RE: Who were the great twentieth century symphonists?
I have been discovering the symphonies of David Matthews and am very, very excited by them. Now, I admit I am a big softie for the English symphony. I take it as read that Elgar, Vaughan Williams, Walton, and Tippett, are great composers who wrote great symphonies. They are world class composers. But I also have always had a soft spot for, and to be honest, I love, Rubbra, Alwyn, Arnold, Simpson, Moeran; and I think Searle, Rawsthorne, Bliss, Bax and Frankel, all interesting and worth a listen. Maxwell Davies, it seems to me, started off very strongly as a symphonist, and falls away as he goes along. Where is Matthews in this?
Well, it seems to me that his 6th is a real breakthrough masterpiece, a big romantic symphony with huge tunes (admittedly the best one is someone else's!). It's a piece which I would have thought ought to be capable of finding as much of an audience as the Elgar/Payne symphony, or RVW 5. Working backwards, I was dumbfounded by the extraordinary beauty of the 3rd. The slow movement of the 5th is Mahlerian. I am quite clear that this symphonic cycle is as important as those of Simpson or Arnold, and I look forward to hearing the next ones.
Although of course Matthews is a 21st century symphonist, and maybe not belonging on this thread!
Wed, May 25 2011, 11:46PM
#5
RE: Who were the great twentieth century symphonists?
Yes, I think it is true that the Austro-German domination ceased at the beginning of the 20th century when British & American composers came into their prominence. As I have said elsewhere I think Elgar's two the greatest symphonies of the 20th century followed by Vaughan Williams's as the two absolute masters. Then the others such as Bax, Rubbra whilst EJ Moeran's sole symphony is quite a minor masterpiece. The thing I find about VW's as compared to say Bax & Rubbra is VW's greater variety of style from the choral first to the somewhat exotically scored Antartica which is more like a tone poem. I've also only recently come accross Bax's two major piano & orchestra pieces Winter Legends & Symphonic Variations which are as much symphonies as piano concerti (he described the former as a symphonia concertante for piano & orchestra whilst the latter is probably one of his longest and most massive scores).
Then of course there's Charles Ives who started out with an almost pure Dvorak imitation in his first symphony, even down to the rather beautiful cor anglais melody in the slow movement to, for something completely different, the crazy Holidays Symphony which I played a recording of last night with its dissonances, folk melodies, sudden branches into a barn dance, a military band and of course his famous recollections of bands playing different pieces simultaneously. An amazing piece for its time years ahead of the avant garde.
Thu, May 26 2011, 5:37PM
#6
RE: Who were the great twentieth century symphonists?
This thread got me wondering: What are the top ten most subjective questions asked on 'classical' music forums?
As a starter:
"Who were the great twentieth century symphonists?" - 'great' not defined, is impossible to define to the agreement of all, ('symphonist' not defined either, come to that,) no one answering is likely to have heard, let alone listened to, even the smallest percentage of all symphonies written in the 20th century...so all answers entirely subjective, or actually answers to a different question.
Still, it's better than "What are you listening to right now?" or "What have you got on order?"!
Thu, May 26 2011, 9:28PM
#7
RE: Who were the great twentieth century symphonists?
Not in agreement with you at all. My original question was meant to be an invitation for serious music lovers to discuss a question that does bother me.
We all accept who the great classical symphonists were, but the question in the twentieth-century seems to me to be more vexed, as to who the undisputed masters of the form were.
Apart from composers such as Sibelius, Shostakovitch, Mahler and Neilsen I honestly do not know. It would appear from the helpful comments/suggestions that there is a general feeling that British composers like Elgar. Walton. Bax. and Vaughan Williams are worthy of being 'up there' with the greats. I am honestly thankful for the comments posted.
Regards
Partsong
Sat, May 28 2011, 6:56AM
#8
RE: Who were the great twentieth century symphonists?
So far, Bartók has not been mentioned. Arguably, his Concerto for Orchestra, while not labeled a 'Symphony', could be classified as the greatest of them all.
Somewhat in the same category falls Janacek's Sinfonietta.
Sat, May 28 2011, 5:31PM
#9
RE: Who were the great twentieth century symphonists?
So far, Bartók has not been mentioned. Arguably, his Concerto for Orchestra, while not labeled a 'Symphony', could be classified as the greatest of them all.
No, it couldn't - all you mean is that you like it a lot! If you seriously think it's the greatest of them all, you haven't listened to very much.
We all accept who the great classical symphonists were, but the question in the twentieth-century seems to me to be more vexed, as to who the undisputed masters of the form were.
We don't all accept who the "undisputed" greats were - there are plenty of "serious music lovers" who have an aversion to Brahms or Mozart or Mahler.
There are a lot of funny people in the world; people listen in different ways; people look for or expect different things from music. So it's utterly pointless to even start thinking there are undisputed greats. Your question should have been: "What are your favourite symphonists or symphonies, or who/which do you think are the greatest?" Because all the answers you've received are answering that question, and only that one.
Sun, May 29 2011, 8:09AM
#10
RE: Who were the great twentieth century symphonists?
...so all answers entirely subjective, or actually answers to a different question.
Of course it's subjective, it can't be (nor should it be) anything else. I responded with my opinions (and they are no more than that) which unsurprisingly reflect my personal taste.
Do you have any opinions on 20th century symphonies of your own to offer?
Sun, May 29 2011, 9:07AM
#11
RE: Who were the great twentieth century symphonists?
We don't all accept who the "undisputed" greats were - there are plenty of "serious music lovers" who have an aversion to Brahms or Mozart or Mahler.
No, we don't (what dull places these forums would be if we did), but if the question had been about the greatest 19th-century symphonists, I would unhesitatingly have included Brahms, even though I don't really much care for his music.
How "undisputed" do these greats have to be? Supposing, again, that the question had been about the previous century, could Beethoven have been a valid inclusion - or would he just be someone's subjective preference, to be dislodged from his pinnacle by someone else's equally valid subjective preference for Raff?
Perhaps there are no 20th-century symphonists as undisputedly great as Beethoven, but that doesn't mean there aren't any that most serious listeners would rank higher than others, without necessarily having to hear every note of symphonic music written in the last century. I've only ever heard one or two of Hovhaness's many symphonies, but I don't think I need to hear all the rest in order to decide whether he's in the front rank or not.
BTW, did anyone mention Stravinsky in the preceding debate?
DF
Mon, May 30 2011, 5:50AM
#12
RE: Who were the great twentieth century symphonists?
I'm surprised and disappointed that no one mentioned Nikolay Myaskovsky-to me the giant of Soviet symphonists. Others worth mentoring include Tubin, Skulte, Melartin, Shebalin Boris Tchaikovsky, Eshpai, Lyatoshynsky, Weinberg, and of course Shostakovich and Prokofiev. Another commentator mentioned the Americans, and rightly so, though I would add William Grant Still to the discussion (and Antheil for that matter). Atterberg is also worth mentioning, although he is not poor man's Sibelius as troyen1 puts it (he's a much more stronger personality than that I found). As for Nielsen, indeed a great Dane.
Mon, May 30 2011, 4:48PM
#13
RE: Who were the great twentieth century symphonists?
Of course it's subjective, it can't be (nor should it be) anything else. I responded with my opinions (and they are no more than that) which unsurprisingly reflect my personal taste.
Well, exactly.
Do you have any opinions on 20th century symphonies
Yes...
of your own to offer?
No. I don't mind if others want to do it, but I can't see the point. No one knows me, so how can my opinion - as opposed to a statement of facts by me - be interesting to anyone?
Mon, May 30 2011, 4:58PM
#14
RE: Who were the great
We don't all accept who the "undisputed" greats were - there are plenty of "serious music lovers" who have an aversion to Brahms or Mozart or Mahler.
No, we don't (what dull places these forums would be if we did), but if the question had been about the greatest 19th-century symphonists, I would unhesitatingly have included Brahms, even though I don't really much care for his music.
Why? (To both parts of that last sentence.)
How "undisputed" do these greats have to be? Supposing, again, that the question had been about the previous century, could Beethoven have been a valid inclusion - or would he just be someone's subjective preference, to be dislodged from his pinnacle by someone else's equally valid subjective preference for Raff?
Well, yes, I suppose so. I've seen plenty of views to the effect that Beethoven's symphonies (or whatever) are overrated. And Raff wrote some fine symphonies. Why not? I don't think anyone would actually make that specific claim, but similar ones, for sure. Would everyone include Schubert, for example? Not by a long chalk.
Perhaps there are no 20th-century symphonists as undisputedly great as Beethoven, but that doesn't mean there aren't any that most serious listeners would rank higher than others, without necessarily having to hear every note of symphonic music written in the last century. I've only ever heard one or two of Hovhaness's many symphonies, but I don't think I need to hear all the rest in order to decide whether he's in the front rank or not.
That's hardly fair on Hovhaness, is it? What if someone had only heard Beethoven's First & Second? Or his Fourth & Eighth? Or only his Ninth, come to that? And if they'd only heard Schubert's Eighth & Ninth, they might well say that Schubert was the greater symphonist.
Mon, May 30 2011, 6:32PM
#15
RE: Who were the great twentieth century symphonists?
Do you have any opinions on 20th century symphonies
Yes...
of your own to offer?
No. I don't mind if others want to do it, but I can't see the point. No one knows me, so how can my opinion - as opposed to a statement of facts by me - be interesting to anyone?
It's a pity you feel that way, although apparently you believe that we will be interested in your opinion of the validity of this thread.
I do not need to know any of the posters to be interested in what others feel are symphonies worth listening to as ideas for further exploration.
Apart from Sibelius and Shostakovich, as mentioned in the OP...
Mahler, of course. Even if you don't care for him , you have to admire him.
Prokofiev - terribly underrated, due to mangling of conventional forms.
Vaughan Williams. For me the cycle starts at 2 and just gets better and better.
Bax - it's easy to lose track in these works, but taken on their own terms they're wonderful.
Hindemith. Always an afterthought, but he did actually write symphonies! Shame he didn't number them.
Hanson is still seen as saccharin and banal, but further performances may reveal new things. I think his 6th has been underestimated.
Rachmaninov deserves an honourable mention for his strong, affecting work in the genre.
I'm afraid Nielsen bores me.