Who were the great twentieth century symphonists?
Mon, Jun 6 2011, 1:03PM
#2
RE: Who were the great twentieth century symphonists?
To Dave F,
Many thanks for such a swift and detailed reply, I think I´ll give the LP a try next week as it´s a regular market and in the year I have been going to it I am the only person who buys classical LPs. The B side is Bartok´s Sonata for 2 pianos and percussion, and as I have the DG LP of the Kontarski´s playing the same work, it wasn´t enough to sway me. I got the feeling the Goeb may have been flavour of the month in 1952, but didn´t wear well, or one of those premieres that is never heard or performed again, but after your words it sounds like it merits a spin.
Tue, Jun 7 2011, 4:23AM
#3
RE: Who were the great twentieth century symphonists?
Further symphonists...
I've been exploring the symphonies of Schnittke lately, having picked up the BIS box cheap from Amazon. I also have Rozhdestvensky's Melodiya recordings of 1-4.
I think that if you love Shostakovich, Mahler and Brucker, with a bit of Mozart levered in, you'll enjoy his 3rd symphony especially. The BIS recording is excellent. You should also hear the 1st and 8th as released by Chandos.
[The BIS box is generally of a high standard, but the recordings of the 8th and 9th are duds (there is no successful 9 yet). The 1st is good, but some important detail is obscured, and the improvisation section goes too long. The rest are very much worth listening to, but the 4th is an odd duck of a work, mostly unsuccessful, and 6 & 7 (& 0) are minor works IMHO.]
I've had unpleasant feelings towards CPO's Rangstrom set. It has an overall atmosphere of great efficiency, but if you examine the performance note by note you find that Jurowski never gives the music the conviction it deserves (he consistently ignores 'cantabile' directions, thus practically destroying the "Song beneath the Stars" 3rd, as well as the Recitativo et Arioso movement of the 4th). I think these four symphonies might in fact be great works, but you can't tell from this set. There have alternative recordings made of all the symphonies, and I have asked both Brilliant and EMI (the first two were made for HMV) to issue them as a new set.
Tue, Jun 7 2011, 9:52PM
#4
RE: Who were the great twentieth century symphonists?
I think I´ll give the LP [of Goeb's 3rd] a try next week...
Well, don't spend too much on it - the piece is rather of its time, and my comparisons with Tippett 2 weren't intended to suggest it was a work of anything like the same stature. Vigorous and enjoyable, and worth a pound or two, I'd say.
Thu, Jun 9 2011, 5:36PM
#5
RE: Who were the great twentieth century symphonists?
Thanks to the Gramophone team for today's feature on Alberic Magnard, already sited on this thread as an interesting 20th Century symphonist.
I am not sure of whether he is totally a 20th C. symphonist as I can only find mention of the premiere of his first symphony in 1894. His dates were 1865-1914. I only possess the 4th on vinyl which is a very decent piece indeed.
(Curiously enough his 2nd Symphony is in E major which is a very uncommon key for a symphony because of transposing brass instruments. The only others I can think of are Bruckner's Symphony 7 and I think there is a Scriabin one also in E major?)
Perhaps Magnard admirers might like to give us their ideas on his symphonies in the light of this date?
Partsong
Thu, Jun 9 2011, 6:28PM
#6
RE: Who were the great twentieth century symphonists?
Indeed Partsong, I listened to Magnard´s Second Symphony today whilst washing the dishes completely unaware that today is his anniversary. I think it´s a very fine piece, the two middle movements in particular, a wonderfully airy scherzo, and a profoundly moving andante. There´s a rousing finale also. His first three symphonies were all written in the 1890´s. The symphonies I have are played by the Malmo Symphony Orchestra under Thoma Sanderling, and are available on Brilliant Classics. The only other Magnard I know is an orchestral piece called Hymne a Venus which I have on an intriguing LP from the Liege Philharmonic.
Thu, Jun 9 2011, 6:36PM
#7
RE: Who were the great twentieth century symphonists?
Just on the point about symphonies in E Major. They are indeed rare, but apart from the ones you mentioned, and not a million miles away from Magnard I would recommend Ropartz´s Third.
Thu, Jun 9 2011, 7:15PM
#8
RE: Who were the great twentieth century symphonists?
I listened to Magnard´s Second Symphony today whilst washing the dishes
There's an interesting topic for a thread: music to accompany particular activities.
I have both the Plasson and Sanderling cycles of Magnard's symphonies - very different interpretations and neither quite ideal. The other complete cycle, under Ossonce, I haven't heard and would be interested to hear from those who have.
Regardless, they're very fine works. Somehow they recall Schumann, perhaps because of the rather thick scoring.
The opera Guercoeur is also well worth getting to know. Plasson did it on cd a while back.
Sun, Jun 12 2011, 8:46PM
#9
RE: Who were the great twentieth century symphonists?
Here's another one. I listened today to Charles Koechlin's The Seven Stars Symphony. It's on a double CD with Berlin Radio and Berlin Symphony orchestras - Zinman/Judd - RCA Red Seal.
It was composed I think in 1933/34 and it really is a very appealing work. Koechlin was much taken with the 'new' advent of the cinema, so each of the seven movements is a kind of musical tribute to film actors of the time - the last - the Charlie Chaplin movement - being by far the longest and clocking in at just under fifteen minutes.
Anyway it is a very rewarding work to listen to - the sound world reminded me of Debussy's L'apres midi. Lots of very sinuous woodwind melodies and expressive strings.
The performance/recording were both extremely good, with the criticism that the upper end of the violins sounds a bit shrill at times.
I wonder if anyone else is a fan of Koechlin and could comment on this or other symphonies/symphonic works/symphonic poems etc...that he wrote?
I understand that some fifty years plus after his death there is still not an official catalogue of his works because of his large oeuvre and the fact that he was plainly indifferent to publication and performance in his own lifetime.
He was also, I believe, a much admired teacher.
Does anyone know who his main publisher is, and about other recordings of his works?
Regards
Partsong
Sun, Jun 12 2011, 10:36PM
#10
RE: Who were the great twentieth century symphonists?
The foregoing correspondence serves to highlight how limited your appreciation and / or experience of 20th century symphonic music seems to be.
Mon, Jun 13 2011, 1:27AM
#11
RE: Who were the great twentieth century symphonists?
It may well be, but I believe in intellectual honesty. I have never made any secret of which composers i am fully familiar with, which partly and which not at all.
How many of the fifty or so names suggested are you familiar with yourself?
Regards
Partsong
Mon, Jun 13 2011, 1:29AM
#12
RE: Who were the great twentieth century symphonists?
I would hardly call my knowledge of the twentieth century symphony limited. Eclectic and selective maybe, but that is a different thing entirely.
Regards
Partsong
Mon, Jun 13 2011, 1:29AM
#13
RE: Who were the great twentieth century symphonists?
Here's another one. I listened today to Charles Koechlin's The Seven Stars Symphony. It's on a double CD with Berlin Radio and Berlin Symphony orchestras - Zinman/Judd - RCA Red Seal.
The performance/recording were both extremely good, with the criticism that the upper end of the violins sounds a bit shrill at times.
I wonder if anyone else is a fan of Koechlin and could comment on this or other symphonies/symphonic works/symphonic poems etc...that he wrote?
Regards
Partsong
It's stretching it to call this piece a symphony, regardless of the title. But I'm overdue on this thread to give my opinion of what a symphony is, and anyway it's a darned fine piece of music.
As is most of Koechlin. Try any of the pieces on Hanssler Classic with the Stuttgart Orchestra conducted by Holliger. The Vocal Works with Orchestra disc is particularly fine, but you'd probably be happy sampling any of them.
I wasn't aware Zinman had done the Op. 132 for RCA, but I have his version of the Jungle Book on RCA and it's one of the worst-sounding cds I've ever heard, searingly bright and close. The Hanssler discs offer top-class sound.
A version of op 132, coupled with the Ballade pour piano et orchestre (EMI, Monte Carlo Orch conducted by Myrat), was my first experience of Koechlin and is still one of my favourite discs. The Ballade is unparalleled late night, reflective listening.
Mon, Jun 13 2011, 1:43AM
#14
RE: Who were the great twentieth century symphonists?
Hi Tagalie! Thanks indeed for that. Judging by the size of Koechlin's oeuvre there isn't I don't think a massive amount yet available on CD.
The RCA/Red Seal I have by the way is a double CD with The Jungle Book on the other disc!
The only other symphonic work I can think of is the old Calouste/Gulbenkian series on Argo, which did a lot to promote 20thc composers. There was a recording of Les Bandar Log together with Messiaen's Chronochromie which I taped from my local library many moons ago. The only one I have on vinyl though from that excellent series is Dalapiccola/Wolpe/Busoni one - all fine works.
Best wishes
Partsong
Mon, Jun 13 2011, 1:55AM
#15
RE: Who were the great twentieth century symphonists?
Sorry Tagalie: my mistake.
To clarify:
The two CD set comprises The Jungle Book on CD 1 and part of CD2 (Les Bandar-Log) - Zinman with the Berlin Radio Symphony Orchestra.
The rest of CD 2 is made up of The Seven Stars Symphony, 4 Interludes and L'Andalouse Dans Barcelone - these works are credited to James Judd and the Berlin Symphony Orchestra - 'Deutsches symphonie-Orchester Berlin'.
The series is called 'Artistes Repertoires'. I need a magnifying glass though to see the serial number!
Am of to zzzzzz......
Partsong
It gets more and more interesting indeed!
We seem to have arrived at a 'disputed' name. A symphonist who was 'debatable' or 'controversial' or whatever, in the twentieth century.
And it wasn't Mahler, or Shostakovitch, or Neilsen, or Sibelius, or Stravinsky or Bax or Vaughan Williams. It was Alan Hovhaness.
Well I have to admit that I have heard of Hovhaness but not heard him, and need to listen to him. OK.
It seems to me that we can go in one of two or three directions at this point. And I do not claim any 'ownership' over the thread because I posted the question. All of us who have contributed own it. It is a question which has bothered me for twenty or thirty years even, and until I joined this forum I have never had a chance to debate it before. I am astonished at the breadth and depth of responses - we must be up to about 50 symphonists now and Goeb again I have to admit is new to me.
So I think we can go on different routes: if I can be allowed to play at being a 'tutor' (which I am not!) and 'steer' the discussion.
We can either:
a) debate Hovhaness - and if we do then please tell me where I would start with him and what are considered to be the 'strengths and weaknesses' of his music and/or why he is considered to be a bit 'debatable' or 'contested' as a symphonist.
b) As Dave says and Wigmaker - what makes a symphonist anyway? Now that might be interesting - we might get up to 200 responses and take two years to arrive at a definition!
c) If I can be allowed to give a work as an example which might be 'contested' as a symphony let alone 'great' - Anton Webern's Symphony opus 21. Is it a symphony? (I have the Boulez CBS complete set of Webern - not exactly a massive oeuvre - the total of his output taking only 4 LP's and yes I know he was an economist!)
So it is over to you guys to take the thread where you will. As You Like It, as Bill the Bard said...
Partsong