78s...or digital discoveries. Or a bit of both.

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Martin Cullingford
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We've just posted two personal features from Gramophone critics Jeremy Nicholas and Jed Distler, the former pondering what to do with his collection of 78s, the latter exploring how the download age has changed the way he listens to music (click their names to read their pieces). Where do you sit along this line, or do both ends of the classical collecting spectrum play a part in all our musical lives?

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kev
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RE: 78s...or digital discoveries. Or a bit of both.

The juxtaposition of Jeremy with his 78s in the garage and Jed with his complexity of hard drives and spread sheets takes some digesting.  I'll chew it over and report back.

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CARLOS PINHEIRO JR
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RE: 78s...or digital discoveries. Or a bit of both.

I have to say I side with Jeremy and his dilemma. I too crave the physical feeling of the recording's support (be it a sleeve or a jewell case), the pleasure of browsing through the liner notes and seeing the musicians' pictures. My daughter, who is 22, simply can't understand why, in this unremittingly digital age, I insist on keeping shelves filled with CDs, DVDs and even - tipping the Jurassic scale - LPs !

I could say that I'm a romantic at heart, but it's not only that. It also has to do with my shameful ignorance of how to handle the now widespread state-of-the-art technical gadgets. Things like streaming, downloading, etc. are totally alien to me. I find managing a simple iPhone an ordeal. Therefore, I couldn't go the Jed Distler route, even if I wanted to. My loss, I suppose.

phlogiston
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RE: 78s...or digital discoveries. Or a bit of both.

I'm moving into the digital age - but like Jeremy Nicholas I don't want to lose the original.

My 78s disappeared quite a few years ago, and I can't see myself going back there. I have been amazed with the way that recent transfers have found so much more music (and less noise) in the older recordings. My threshold of acceptability for recordings has shifted back from about 1950 to the early '30s. I have recently taken pleasure in Beethoven recording from Schnabel and Gieseking.

I can see some CDs being digitised and space being liberated- I'm slowly working through my vinyl and casettes. Still got to get my head round hard discs in the music stuff around the house.

Best  wishes,

P

33lp
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RE: 78s...or digital discoveries. Or a bit of both.

How much of a hoarder is one? I still have my 78s but nothing currently set up to play them on, refurbishment of some old kit always being on the agenda. I now have practically all of them on CD or LP though and as Phlogiston says there are some very good transfers around although of course collectors will never agree on how much processing  the originals should be subjected to. I personally favour a light touch and do not like those emasculated by CEDAR noise reduction. I like some of Pearl's early piano issues which sound just how I remember the originals where I have them (some of Pearl's transfers have borrowed originals from Malcolm Binns's collection). On one occasion playing a Pearl CD I actually started to get up for the expected side change and whenever I hear certain works I always remember the side change point appproaching.

This reissue of some 78 material may however come to an end due to recent Brussels medling in the extension of copyright.

In the days when Radio 3 had a little more initiative they gave much more attention to historic recordings and I used to enjoy Jeremy Nicholas's "Shellac Show" which introduced me to some delightful items of which I was unaware and which had not been reissued in modern formats (a highlight was Raie da Costa's Liszt Rigoletto paraprase, now subsequently issued on CD). I'm not fantastically enthused over downloads but have purchased from the Chandos Shop provided the items were available as uncompressed CDs (ie no MP3s). Recently I have been listening to some 78  items on the British Institute Of Recorded Sound's internet site (no charge).

kev
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RE: 78s...or digital discoveries. Or a bit of both.

Martin Cullingford wrote:

...Where do you sit along this line, or do both ends of the classical collecting spectrum play a part in all our musical lives?

Jeremy should hang on to his 78s, LPs & 45s.  There are times when emotion should triumph over logic.  This is the problem for men because we don't really do emotion.

I can't be bothered with the paraphernalia of downloading and storage.  I make do with Spotify at 320kbps for exploration, but top-up with CDs of special interest for the packaging and sound quality.

I'm waiting for a FLAC music streaming service to subscribe to but given the state of our broadband infrastucture, I'm not holding my breath.

I listen to Radio 3 through my satellite receiver but the sound is thin compared to CDs.

Jeremy - how about a podcast or internet radio show?  Your anecdotes illustrated with audio would be perfect.

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caballe
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RE: 78s...or digital discoveries. Or a bit of both.

I have to confess to being a Luddite when it comes down to new technology. I haven't progressed from a portable CD player and get funny looks on the train. I contemplated obtaining an ipod but downloading and transferring music when I already own a considerable collection has little appeal for me in spite of the convenience. I need to replace my amplifier as it is on its last legs but ipod docking stations have little appeal visually. Perhaps I need a demonstration. My back bedroom, if it can be called a bedroom anymore - there's no bed in it - is used as storage for a collection of roughly 2,000 vinyl records, 2,000 CDs and maybe 100 cassettes (does anyone stll play them? I know I rarely do). I can't contemplate getting rid of any of them just yet although I realise it may be a major headache for my family in years to come unless I do so. Judging by comments about the size of the collections of some other posters, mine is miniscule in comparison - (am I right Parla?). I sometimes listen to Spotify and find it fascinating to compare different recordings of the same work. Conversely, and I consider myself an auditory person, I have the latest technology for film - 3DTV, Blue Ray, surround sound etc. Maybe I need a kick up the pants or a crisis to get me to change my ways. On the other hand, if I can't see it and handle it, it's not really there.....!

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Philip-Clark
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RE: 78s...or digital discoveries. Or a bit of both.

My friend, the jazz writer Richard Cook, who died in 2007, always argued that Classic 1920s/30s jazz (ie Louis, Bix, Bessie Smith, Johnny Dodds et al) sounded better on 78 because that's the medium they were recorded for. Who was it who said that digitalisation does to recorded sound what microwave ovens do to chicken?

I have yet to find a 78 rpm turntable to test Richard's theory, but I do have a few 78s left to me by a friend of my father's.

kev
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RE: 78s...or digital discoveries. Or a bit of both.

Philip-Clark wrote:

...digitalisation does to recorded sound what microwave ovens do to chicken?

Funny you should mention this now.  I'm thinking of buying a microwave with a built-in fan oven.  I already have vacuum tube amps and dac, but because of the expense and inconvenience of maintaining them, was thinking of seeing what modern transistor amps have to offer.

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33lp
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RE: 78s...or digital discoveries. Or a bit of both.

Kev, I am surprised you find vacuum tube amps a maintenance liability. I find I have very few problems. I've been using one of mine for over 40 years with just one set of new output valves (tubes) and I only had to take the soldering iron to it for the first time last year when I replaced the silicon HT rectifiers after one failed. It should be possible to keep tube amps going indefinitely (witness the silly prices some asked for some vintage items). I'm not sure that's the case though for solid state items (vintage versions of which seem little sought after).

Philip-Clark
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RE: 78s...or digital discoveries. Or a bit of both.

kev wrote:

I'm thinking of buying a microwave with a built-in fan oven.

Good luck playing your 78s on that.

kev
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RE: 78s...or digital discoveries. Or a bit of both.

33lp wrote:

Kev, I am surprised you find vacuum tube amps a maintenance liability.

My mono-block amps date from about 1999.  I had to replace a the 300B valves a few years ago at £300 per matched pair (1 to each block).  One of the blocks (not the valves) has just failed and I don't have the skill to repair it.  I live in the north of England but the authorised repair agent is in the south.  (I'll probably deliver it to him myself later this year whilst on my way on holiday somewhere - it's too risky to send by parcel service).

But it's worse than that 33lp.  I've concluded that I can't reproduce the timbre of acoustic intruments, from recordings, at home, at a price I can afford and probably not at any price.  I decided this during a live performance of Handel's Dixit recently.  The sound of the ensemble was heavenly.  The sound from my valve amps is enjoyable but not heavenly.  I may as well consider an enjoyable, but cheaper, transistor amp.

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33lp
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RE: 78s...or digital discoveries. Or a bit of both.

Kev wrote

But it's worse than that 33lp.  I've concluded that I can't reproduce the timbre of acoustic intruments, from recordings, at home, at a price I can afford and probably not at any price. 

Fair comment Kev, I thought the piano recording I was playing last night got pretty close but it still wasn't quite the real thing! All we can do is as Quad used to say look for "the closest approach to the original sound".

And yes, for some reason 300B valves are expensive.  I've had to replace one in the Audio Note 300B SE amp I built around 1999 but being single ended (and of course lower power) I didn't need to replace the pair but did stick to the same brand.  If you can find a competent TV repairer they should be able to fix your amp, especially if you have a circuit diagram but in these days of throwaway electronics perhaps they no longer exist.

33lp
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RE: 78s...or digital discoveries. Or a bit of both.

Philip-Clark wrote

My friend, the jazz writer Richard Cook, who died in 2007, always argued that Classic 1920s/30s jazz (ie Louis, Bix, Bessie Smith, Johnny Dodds et al) sounded better on 78 because that's the medium they were recorded for. Who was it who said that digitalisation does to recorded sound what microwave ovens do to chicken.

Quite possibly correct if the 78s are properly played with the correct equalization curve. If transferred to another medium or digitized this very much depends on the skill and point of view of the restorer. I have heard some (classical) transfers to CD that have so altered the ambience and recorded acoustic in attempts to eliminate all surface noise that I find them unlistenable. With acoustic (ie pre 1925) recordings some think they are best heard on an acoustic gramophone. Nimbus used to do their transfers playing acoustic 78s in their concert hall on a modified EMG machine with a massive horn, re-recording them with appropriately placed microphones.

Philip-Clark
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RE: 78s...or digital discoveries. Or a bit of both.

This is interesting, 33lp. Could you say more about what transfers you've found unlistenable? I always reckoned Sony made a complete hash of transferring Benny Goodman's 1938 Carnegie Hall concert, but that their Louis Armstrong Hot 5s/7s really aren't bad - although not as good as JSP's versions of the same material. Ditto, JSP's release of Jelly Roll Morton's Red Hot Peppers sides always sounded superior to any 'major label' efforts. Any thoughts? 

spadger
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RE: 78s...or digital discoveries. Or a bit of both.

I agree that many of today's interventionist re-masterings are not a patch on the originals. Pearl [now sadly no longer operating, I think] were the best to my ears. The Nimbus approach was rather different but I found their Beecham Magic Flute most acceptable. Their method was somewhat idiosyncratic but it appeared to work well. I seem to remember John Steane having good things to say about  the Nimbus method and there was no-one whose judgement I would trust more than his.