After the big names so where next for newbies

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Barking_Spiders
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I guess I've only seriously been listening to CM for around a year but am pretty clear what floats my boat and what sinks it. In a nutshell the floaters are orchestral works from late Classical through to mid 20th C and  some solo piano works, primarily LvB, Debussy and Satie. Clear favourites are LvB, Haydn (London symphs), Schubert, Mendelssohn, Schumann, Dvorak, Saint Saens, Ravel, Debussy, Sibelius (tone poems but not the symphs), Tchaikovsky, Rimsky-K, Borodin, Berlioz, Brahms, Smetana, Holst, Mozart from symph #32, Khachaturian, von Suppe's overtures, Rossini's overtures and Grieg. Stuff I'm struggling with are symphs by Sibelius, Mahler, Shostakovich, Prokofiev and Bruckner, R Strauss's tone poems (except for Alpine Symphony which is great),  Stravinsky and all that atonal stuff from Schoenberg, Webern et al. Not too sold on Vaughan Williams (apart from Thomas Tallis fantasia), Elgar, Delius etc. This may seem sacrilegious but Bach and Handel don't really do it for me either. I think this is because I generally prefer the sound of big orchestras that have brass and percussion.

After all that preamble the question is, where next. I've thumbed my way through the Naxos catalogue and most of the names mean little to me. So, I'm interested in checking out less known composers from the Romantic  / early 20th century who've made some cracking symphonies, tone poems, dances, serenades etc ... and no 20+ minute adagios.

tagalie
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RE: After the big names so where next for newbies

You could get 50 responses and they'd all be different. For starters, on both your likes and dislikes you've got an impressive line-up of great works.

Instead of throwing names at you I'd suggest you look for a method of exploring that works for you. I did a ton of reading on works and composers to help find the stuff I liked, and I joined a couple of libraries. These days there are all kinds of ways to sample music.

A couple of thoughts: a poor performance will convince you a particular piece of music or its composer don't work for you. Take a look at reviews to help you find recordings that do a work justice. And it takes time to get to know and appreciate some music. Keep going back to the works that didn't appeal first time around. You'll surprise yourself.

Barking_Spiders
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RE: After the big names so where next for newbies

I take your point but with so much stuff out there and so little time to check out even a smidgin of it I need  straightforward advice from folk who know more than me. Fr'instance, on another forum I had the same list and someone suggested I check out Rachmaninov's 2nd symphony. I did and it's right up my street.

As I'm no expert I'm not sure if I could tell what a poor performance of a good work is, other than something played by a 5th form school orchestra.

DaveF
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RE: After the big names so where next for newbies

First of all, don't be too daunted by the Naxos catalogue - Naxos have done such good service to neglected/forgotten composers that even those of us who have been listening for 40 years haven't heard of half of them!  For someone who has only been listening for a year, your list is already pretty impressive.

So to specific suggestions, with orchestral music in mind: if you struggle with Sibelius's Finnish gloom, how about his exact contemporary Nielsen's Danish optimism?  I would say start with the 4th or 5th symphonies before moving on, and if the bug bites you might then tackle such late rarified masterpieces as the 6th symphony, the flute and clarinet concertos.

20th-century late romantics who come to mind are Franz Schmidt (Naxos have just recorded all 4 symphonies - try no.4), Respighi - a master orchestrator (Pines of Rome, Fountains of Rome) - and Martinu, whose 4th symphony was my entry-point (what is it with 4th symphonies?).

As far as Rachmaninov goes, the symphonies, IMHO, generally show his inspiration at its weaker end - for a couple of orchestral crackers not involving the piano, you might like to try The Isle of the Dead and the Symphonic Dances.

And a final probably completely irrelvant suggestion - if you liked VW's Tallis Fantasia, you might enjoy... Tallis?

Happy listening,

DF

TedR
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RE: After the big names so where next for newbies

Perhaps also if you haven't already heard them you could try some works by the composers you struggle with that are maybe are a little closer to the style you like: 

Stravinsky's Pulcinella Suite

Shostakovich's The Gadfly or maybe Symphony 9, Piano Concerto 2

Prokofiev's Classical Symphony

Elgar's Wand of Youth Suites

Mahler's 4th symphony

cjdeldotto
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RE: After the big names so where next for newbies

If you like early-to-mid twentieth-century orchestral music with a big brass and percussion sound, I can't recommend Janacek's Sinfonietta and Britten's Sinfonia da Requeim highly enough.  I was a percussionist for 12 years, and both works are among the handful of pieces I wish I had had the chance to perform.  I'd also second the above recommendation of Nielsen; his Fifth Symphony is extraordinary (and would also be among the handful of pieces I wish I had played -- killer snare drum part!).  I'd further check out Erich Wolfgang Korngold, specifically his Symphony from 1954, and Paul Hindemith's Symphonic Metamorphosis.

 

The American tradition from this period -- Ives, Barber, Copland, Bernstein, etc. -- is wonderful, very charismatic and a lot of fun.

Barking_Spiders
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RE: After the big names so where next for newbies

Thanks for your replies folks. I was thinking about checking out Neilsen next but which recordings stand out? There's a cycle by Blomstedt/Danish SO going cheap on Amazon and another by him with an American orchestra but I've forgotten which one. I'm not sure if I'm on the right lines but I tend to opt for conductors and/or orchestras  who are of the same nationality as the composers. Seems they have a special affinity for the music, particularly the Russians, Czechs and Finns. It sure works with Kubelik and Kertesz doing Dvorak and Smetana.

martin_opera
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RE: After the big names so where next for newbies

For "Classical Music" I would suggest Max Reger (maybe the variations and fugues?) and Sergey Taneyev (probably the chamber music first such as the excellent Piano Quintet and Trio with Pletnev).  I would also keep trying with Mahler and perhaps dive straight into his 9th Symphony with Simon Rattle and BPO. 

You also don't mention opera and leider which are key components of CM!  I would recommend starting with Bizet's Carmen (C: Abbado) with its wonderful orchestration and then Verdi's Otello (C: Levine or Chung) or Falstaff (C: Bernstein) for an understanding of how music lifts these well known emotive stories to even greater levels.  Not forgetting Mozart's Cosi Fan Tutte (C: Jacobs) - a true chamber opera and his best work in my opinion.

On leider I would go for Strauss Four Last Songs (C: J Norman or S Isokovski) and Shubert Winterreise (Lewis and Padmore is as good as any).

Finally if you haven't heard the Verdi Requiem (C: Gardiner or Pappano) or Faure Requiem (C: ?? Naxos Label) you are missing out.

Happy listening.

 

dubrob
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RE: After the big names so where next for newbies

The cycle you mentioned is not bad at all, especialy if it´s going cheap. The link between the nationality of orchestra and composer may well be a good guiding principle, but I personally wouldn´t overstate the so called affinity aspect.

If orchestras have a particular sound it´s because the same musicians have played together for a long time, very often in the same venue, and have been educated in a similar tradition to their predecessors, and they tend to play the music from their country a lot more often than orchestras from other countries, and thus have a greater fluency or facility in this repetoire than other orchestras. It has nothing to do with their national character, whatever that means. This idea that a Russian orchestra has a particular sound because they are Russian, or that Russian music is an expression of the Russian character is just nonsense for me, which is sadly used and abused by people who have an interest in the vacuous claims of nationalism. Music is the greatest international language we have, and a wonderful way of uniting people across the world, and showing us that whatever differences there may be between cultures, they are less than the similarities.

The idea of national sound is even more ridiculous today because of the fact that most orchestras are made up of musucians from all over the world. You spoke of the affinity that Kertesz has with the music of Smetana or Dvorak, well Kertesz was Hungarian, and the two composers were Czech, so he shouldn´t have had an affinity with this music, nor for that matter should Charles Mackerras, but by God he did, or Colin Davis and English orchestras with Berlioz.

Kertesz was Hungarian, a country that during the last century had its borders changed so often as to show all to evidently that the idea of countries and national character are very often arbitrary inventions, that people use when it´s convenient to do so, and underplay when less so.

Wen are all human, all individuals, you can find people of whatever character you can imagine anywhere, and music is music, everywhere the same that´s the point for me. 

 

DaveF
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RE: After the big names so where next for newbies

Barking_spiders, if you get the Danish Nielsen/Blomstedt cycle, do report back with your opinion.  I have Blomstedt's San Francisco Nielsen set, but £5.99 or whatever for the other one is unmissable if it's any good.  And you can't have too many Nielsen 5ths as they are literally all different, thanks to the 1st movement side-drum cadenza.

DF

SpiderJon
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RE: After the big names so where next for newbies

Barking_Spiders wrote:

Thanks for your replies folks. I was thinking about checking out Neilsen next but which recordings stand out? There's a cycle by Blomstedt/Danish SO going cheap on Amazon and another by him with an American orchestra but I've forgotten which one.

I've got the LSO/Schmidt cycle (Regis, 1974) -  which I think is very good, and which seems to be well regarded.  Fwiw, it won Schmidt the 1975 Nielsen Priz - see this obituary of Schmidt, who died last year.

I haven't heard the Danish Radio SO/Blomstedt cycle, so can't comment on that, but it also seems to attract positive reviews.

Quote:
I'm not sure if I'm on the right lines but I tend to opt for conductors and/or orchestras  who are of the same nationality as the composers. Seems they have a special affinity for the music, particularly the Russians, Czechs and Finns. It sure works with Kubelik and Kertesz doing Dvorak and Smetana.

Charles Mackerras's 'affinity' for Czech music tends to suggest it's not a universal rule.

As does the fact that Kertész was Hungarian, not Czech :-)

But I do agree about Kubelik - his Dvořák symphony cycle with the Berlin Phil is terrific.

__

PS. I started this reply much earlier, and got distracted, and see that dubrob made my last few points before me :-)

He's right that Hungary had its borders changed quite dramatically during the Twentieth century (it lost 3/4 of its area after WWI), and also that the concept of a country can be somewhat arbitrary.

But I think cultural characteristics can be very strong and persistent - hence, indeed, all the problems in Central/Eastern Europe that have resulted from the repeated changing of national borders over the past several hundred years - from 'acute' major conflicts & wars, to chronic social problems where there are 'enclaves' (social or physical) of one 'national' culture within another.

And such strong cultural characteristics very often find an expression in music (as well as other art forms).

__________________

"Louder! Louder! I can still hear the singers!"

- Richard Strauss to the orchestra, at a rehearsal.

Andrew Mellor
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RE: After the big names so where next for newbies

Just to pick up on the Nielsen discussion - the Blomstedt Nielsen cycle is by my reckoning serviceable but not outstanding.

I'd recommend the Rozhdestvensky recordings with the Royal Stockholm Phil Orch on Chandos. The Third is particularly good.

Worth hearing is Osmo Vanska's just-boxed-up cycle on BIS with the BBC Scottish and Lahti Symph Orchs - as usual with Vanska, you might find you hear things in a way you didn't hear them before.

Not sure how interested you are barking_spider in historic recordings, but there's a performance of the Third taped in Sheffield (I think) from the old BBC Northern Symphony Orchestra conducted by Jascha Horenstein - it's on BBC Legends and is an absolute belter (as is its coupling, Sibelius 5). A real treasure.

Colin Davis is one disc into a cycle with LSO Live (currently 4 & 5), and it sounds like it will be very much worth having - full-boidied, battling, uncompromised in texture and sound.

Sorry to bang on about the Third but I think in many ways it's the symphony that most easily introduces the major/minor battle and other hallmarks of Nielsen's symphony writing.

otterhouse
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RE: After the big names so where next for newbies

Definitly check out Franz Berwald: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Berwald His Sinfona Singuliere (3rd symphony) is original, memorable and beautiful. Here the beginning: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvYcLwIbmLU (put on 480p for better sound quality) I'm still waiting for an "official" EMI re-issue of the 1965 Sixten Ehrling recording, but the symphony has been recorded many times. His chambermusic is fine too http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NH0jSOHHkRs&hd=1 Rolf

dubrob
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RE: After the big names so where next for newbies

Spiderjon: cultural characteristics most certainly can be and are strong and persistent, the desire to give voice to the culture which you inherited and were brought up in, the desire to fight against the repression of any such culture, or any forms of injustice in general, the will to accept and withstand the cruel vagaries of history, the wish to promote ideas of liberty and peace most certainly persist, but all these things are universal for me, and when people start calling them typically Irish or Russian, or Czech or Indian or French or whatever, this is what I think is a non starter. I said Dvorak and Smetana were Czech, better would have been Bohemian as Czechoslovakia didn´t exist then, nor does it today. Thirty years ago I´m sure some people were happy to talk about a Yugoslav national character, who would dare say such a thing today.

I´m completely with Stravinsky when he said that music expresses nothing. It´s a sequence of sounds no more nor less, whatever meaning a composer or a listener puts on a particular piece of music is ultimately subjective and completely arbitrary for me.

martin_opera
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RE: After the big names so where next for newbies

Barking_spiders - you note that you love the Rossini overtures.  Did you know that he also wrote some blooming good operas too!!  Sarcasm aside do try L'Italiana In Algieri (C: Abbado) and La Cenerentola (C: Lopez-Cobos) as well as the Barber of Seville (C: Humburg) which is popular because it's good. 

Barking_Spiders
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RE: After the big names so where next for newbies

As I have your attention I'm thinking about adding a couple more cycles of some of my above mentioned faves seeing as they're going pretty cheap on Amazon. Currently I have

Brahms - Sanderling and HvK (the red cover with him in fetching cardy)

Schumann - Sawallisch, Szell, Dohnanyi and Kubelik

Mendelssohn - Abbado

Schubert - Harnoncourt/Concertgebouw plus Mackerras 5, 8 & 9 and Beecham 3,5 & 6

What others as good or even better?