Anyone interested in Chamber Music?
Sun, Sep 4 2011, 12:40AM
#2
RE: Anyone interested in Chamber Music?
However, I still struggle with Lulu, the little minx, even though I have two recordings
Check out the Andrew Davis dvd. Aside from being superb musically, Schafer has the character down to a T. And isn't hard to look at.
Maybe, but the recordings I have, both recorded live, I have seen.
The famous Boulez I saw on TV direct from the Bastille and the Tate at ROH.
Mon, Sep 5 2011, 12:07AM
#3
RE: Anyone interested in Chamber Music?
Good sleep, maybe with some disturbing dreams on the "infamous" Lulu.
Most probably, Beethoven's op. 132 or even 133 could give you some better options, let alone op. 135 ("The difficult decision"), but, still Troyen1,you might wish to take your "gun" and shoot (yourself) again...
Parla
What are you prattling on about, now?
I am at a loss because I know these late quartets and the Grosse Fuge fairly well and I am surprised that you haven't included that corruscating work of genius, op. 131, but, perhaps you don't know it.
The last thing to keep me awake at night would be worrying about my response to any music, oh, and anything you have to say(yawn, yawn), of course.
Mon, Sep 5 2011, 4:23PM
#4
RE: Anyone interested in Chamber Music?
Oh, Troyen1, I really admire the way you can streamline the most spiritual works in the whole field of classical music and the fact that you can always have a good sleep, anyway.
(Yes, I could have mentioned op. 127 or 130 as well and maybe some more of the whole output of chamber music of Beethoven, but they will give you more yawns...).
By the way, do you have any affinity for his cello sonatas and the op. 5, no.2, in particular?
Parla
Tue, Sep 6 2011, 12:39AM
#5
RE: Anyone interested in Chamber Music?
Oh, Troyen1, I really admire the way you can streamline the most spiritual works in the whole field of classical music and the fact that you can always have a good sleep, anyway.
(Yes, I could have mentioned op. 127 or 130 as well and maybe some more of the whole output of chamber music of Beethoven, but they will give you more yawns...).
By the way, do you have any affinity for his cello sonatas and the op. 5, no.2, in particular?
Parla
I have no recordings of violin, 'cello, flute or whatever, sonatas in my record collection unless coupled with an orchestral work and nor do I intend to get any.
It is not the music, whether it be op. 130 or op. 131 ofBeethoven, that makes me yawn but your never diminishing desire to respond to anything I put to you with a leaden wit (I use the word loosely).
May I suggest you spend more time listening for god in the notes of the great music you so admire, although I would advise a better choice of performance than those you have indicated as your preferences, rather than waste your time in formulating dull responses to my posts.
If there are any further suggestions that I can offer to aid you in this pleasurable task please, I beg of you, do not bother to ask.
Tue, Sep 6 2011, 8:30AM
#6
RE: Anyone interested in Chamber Music?
Fair enough, Troyen1. I never bothered to ask. You offer them, probably, because you have this certainty you know better.
The fact that, by choice, you "ignore" a vast majority of chamber music, such as the violin or cello sonatas of Beethoven, definitely brings us miles apart.
A final observation, though. I see huge threads on the performances. Gramophone and other magazines claim the same thing. Even your last suggestion about "better performances" implies that you believe in "benchmarks". This kind of "certainty" means that they are your "benchmarks" (or simply "better performances"), based on your (and other' s) "taste" or on some kind of "objective criteria". If it's the former, what kind of "better" thing may be something based on such an subjective ground? If, however, it's the "objective" thing which defines a performance as "better", which are these "kind of" criteria?
I will highly appreciate it, if I have your (even unkind) reply.
Parla
Wed, Sep 7 2011, 12:01AM
#7
RE: Anyone interested in Chamber Music?
Fair enough, Troyen1. I never bothered to ask. You offer them, probably, because you have this certainty you know better.
The fact that, by choice, you "ignore" a vast majority of chamber music, such as the violin or cello sonatas of Beethoven, definitely brings us miles apart.
A final observation, though. I see huge threads on the performances. Gramophone and other magazines claim the same thing. Even your last suggestion about "better performances" implies that you believe in "benchmarks". This kind of "certainty" means that they are your "benchmarks" (or simply "better performances"), based on your (and other' s) "taste" or on some kind of "objective criteria". If it's the former, what kind of "better" thing may be something based on such an subjective ground? If, however, it's the "objective" thing which defines a performance as "better", which are these "kind of" criteria?
I will highly appreciate it, if I have your (even unkind) reply.
Parla
I had to read this more than once to try to understand it.
If you are not going to answer my questions then why should I try to understand yours?
I did not imply anything. It is you that is making implications.
I simply think that some of your chosen recordings are not up to much judging by other recorded performances that I know. If your taste or judgement doesn't extend beyond that experience then fine, I am not trying to impose my taste or judgement upon you and I am happy for you to carry on. It has nothing to do with benchmarking, although you will note in the current issue of Gramophone the recommendations for Dvorak's 5th symphony most of which I know, some of which I own, including Sejna's classic recording (is that a "benchmark" recording?) and one of which I am reminded of and intend to own (the Turnovsky).
Read the review and see if it conforms with the beliefs you have so ineloquently elucidated.
Wed, Sep 7 2011, 9:00AM
#8
RE: Anyone interested in Chamber Music?
I'm very glad that you brought a new element on the table : the judgement.
Maybe, sometime in the future, we might bring up the Knowledge factor.
For the time being, we are fine, Troyen1, with our taste and judgement. (By the way, I practically own most of the so called "benchmark" or "better" or even "best" performances on record, but I still prefer the ones I mentioned for my own reasons, without claiming that may be "worthy" of some particular accolades).
The difference with me and the majority of readers of any magazine is that I found a sort of futility in trying to indentify any kind of "best" recording, (based on the fact that there are so many factors defining a recording and making it so different than the live), but I firmly believe in the true value of the different kinds and works of music (based on the uncontestable source of the existing scores).
Parla
Wed, Sep 7 2011, 12:01PM
#9
RE: Anyone interested in Chamber Music?
I'm very glad that you brought a new element on the table : the judgement.
Maybe, sometime in the future, we might bring up the Knowledge factor.
For the time being, we are fine, Troyen1, with our taste and judgement. (By the way, I practically own most of the so called "benchmark" or "better" or even "best" performances on record, but I still prefer the ones I mentioned for my own reasons, without claiming that may be "worthy" of some particular accolades).
The difference with me and the majority of readers of any magazine is that I found a sort of futility in trying to indentify any kind of "best" recording, (based on the fact that there are so many factors defining a recording and making it so different than the live), but I firmly believe in the true value of the different kinds and works of music (based on the uncontestable source of the existing scores).
Parla
I did not say anything of the kind. You are the one obsessed with "benchmark" and "best."
Gramophone, the BBC and others try to recommend a "library" recording but I am not aware that this is anything other than a judgement based on a number of factors. Take it or leave it. However, I do think that the recorded repertoire is overburdened with mediocrity. Is that what you are defending?
The right to enjoy the mediocre.
Or is it another example of you back pedalling like mad to defend, nay-excuse, your error(s) of judgement?
When in a hole etc!
I haven't even started on consensus so do not try to attribute any views on that matter to me.
Benchmarks are used by Pension Fund managers.
Wed, Sep 7 2011, 6:27PM
#10
RE: Anyone interested in Chamber Music?
To start from the end, Troyen1, "benchmarks" are used most frequently by the BBC Music magazine. Gramophone use any other term of "good" and its superlatives (and gives "Awards" for excellent or even brilliant recordings) and there are huge threads in these forums defending this performance against another. It's not me who defend anything in the field of performances, but rather in the actual music.
However, I simply asked how you or these magazines define any performance as "good" (with the appropriate superlatives), if anything is a mere "taste", a (value) judgement or a recommendation (which we take it or leave it). Now, you added also "a number of factors" (undefined) that play a role as well. You bring also a new element : the "mediocrity" of the new recordings. If everything is taste, personal judgement and mere suggestions, how we define a mediocre performance/recording? Without any objective criteria, I don't see why and how I have to accept any performance (or recording) as mediocre and, much more, to defend it. After all, is anybody who has the authority to speak on Music? If we may recognise that there is, then there should be objective "factors" and "elements" that we cannot ignore and which play a critical role in judging a performance or, much more, a work of music as "great" and to what extent.
Besides, I never seek to reach any consensus with you, but I wish we could comprehend each other, at least for the sake of loving classical music. So, I don't try to attribute anything to you and I hope, one day, you may do the same.
Finally, on the subject of Chamber music, another "wimp", namely the conductor Mark Wigglesworth, has initiated his blog in Gramophone, claiming, almost in an identical way as me, the virtues of this form. I hope you may visit this blog and you respond in the same vehement way.
Parla
Thu, Sep 8 2011, 12:38AM
#11
RE: Anyone interested in Chamber Music?
To start from the end, Troyen1, "benchmarks" are used most frequently by the BBC Music magazine. Gramophone use any other term of "good" and its superlatives (and gives "Awards" for excellent or even brilliant recordings) and there are huge threads in these forums defending this performance against another. It's not me who defend anything in the field of performances, but rather in the actual music.
However, I simply asked how you or these magazines define any performance as "good" (with the appropriate superlatives), if anything is a mere "taste", a (value) judgement or a recommendation (which we take it or leave it). Now, you added also "a number of factors" (undefined) that play a role as well. You bring also a new element : the "mediocrity" of the new recordings. If everything is taste, personal judgement and mere suggestions, how we define a mediocre performance/recording? Without any objective criteria, I don't see why and how I have to accept any performance (or recording) as mediocre and, much more, to defend it. After all, is anybody who has the authority to speak on Music? If we may recognise that there is, then there should be objective "factors" and "elements" that we cannot ignore and which play a critical role in judging a performance or, much more, a work of music as "great" and to what extent.
Besides, I never seek to reach any consensus with you, but I wish we could comprehend each other, at least for the sake of loving classical music. So, I don't try to attribute anything to you and I hope, one day, you may do the same.
Finally, on the subject of Chamber music, another "wimp", namely the conductor Mark Wigglesworth, has initiated his blog in Gramophone, claiming, almost in an identical way as me, the virtues of this form. I hope you may visit this blog and you respond in the same vehement way.
Parla
Do you ever read my posts?
I said nothing at all about the mediocrity of modern recordings.
Freudian slip on your part?
I do not read the BBC Music Magazine but I do listen to CD Review and am not aware of benchmarks being used there. However, they do take a work, review most, if not all, the available recordings and the reviewer comes to a conclusion or two, or three: overall recommendation, historic choice and bargain choice, but not always the last two.
Also, Gramophone gives awards for the best recordings in a number of categories for that year.
I am becoming exhausted by all this. It is like trying to converse with a particularly beligerent child who either doesn't listen or doesn't understand and keeps on finding ways of avoiding answering the queation, and no, I'm not going to read and, therefore, respond to Wigglesworth's blog because as I repeatedly have to inform you that I have little interest in chamber music preferring my music big and the bigger the better, massive symphonies, huge choral works and operas packed with choruses and concerted passages.
I am beginning to wonder why I have spent so long on this thread and feel as if I am hogging it at the expense of those that wish to have an intelligent conversation on the subject.
Thu, Sep 8 2011, 3:01AM
#12
RE: Anyone interested in Chamber Music?
Why stop now, you were beginning to give the JB7 thread a run for its money?
Thu, Sep 8 2011, 7:13AM
#13
RE: Anyone interested in Chamber Music?
I listen to chamber and instrumental music ca. 75% of the time. My fundamental, (.... and quivering) sequence of preferences, starting with quartets, is currently like this: 4-2-1-5-3; I´d say the only assured position is ... numero UNO for quartets, not very original for sure, but there it is :-)
Thu, Sep 8 2011, 3:37PM
#14
RE: Anyone interested in Chamber Music?
Why stop now, you were beginning to give the JB7 thread a run for its money?
Maybe, but I know that if I carry on with this any longer I will begin to hear God, or a god, in every note.
If he insists on having the last word who am I to begrudge a simple soul his wish?
Fri, Sep 9 2011, 11:11AM
#15
RE: Anyone interested in Chamber Music?
Oh, Troyen1, probably you are not a "simple soul" and, maybe, you look or behave as "belligerent child". As to who reads each other' s posts and "who avoids answering questions", I leave it to you along with any "Freudian slip(s)".
I think I should accept the fact that you see "the more the merrier" (the bigger the better), but you have, one day, to wonder (at least) whether "less is more" (this is not only mine). If you get this, we won't be that far apart. In any case, I listen extensively to Symphonic, Choral and Operatic repertoire, mostly because they give me the benefit of the "colours", the ambience and the "glory" of sound (sometimes along with La Follie de Grandeur) in music. However, when I have to deal with the purity of form, I have to go to Chamber, Instrumental, Lieder, Vocal Ensembles, etc.
I initiated this tread with a view to bringing some awareness for a form of Classical Music that desrves to be more exposed and more involved in our listening experience, but absolutely not at the detriment of any other. I am quite content that quite a few people responded very positively and I understand those who didn't (Caballe, for obvious reasons, and you, dear Troyen1 - definitely not a "wimp"). I am very glad, also, that a conductor established an almost identical blog in Gramophone. It is quite interesting that a man of the big symphonic orchestras and opera (grand included) can speak openly about the value and wealth of merits of this form. (And he is not the only one...).
Parla
However, I still struggle with Lulu, the little minx, even though I have two recordings
Check out the Andrew Davis dvd. Aside from being superb musically, Schafer has the character down to a T. And isn't hard to look at.