Bernstein - good for Mahler but nothing else.
Sat, Oct 29 2011, 12:34PM
#2
RE: Bernstein - good for Mahler but nothing else.
Yet a few posts ago Vic, I was, in your words ' a simple bigot who was beneath contempt' and on another thread I was ' a nazi'. You don't seem to practise what you preach Vic old chap.
Sat, Oct 29 2011, 1:06PM
#3
RE: Bernstein - good for Mahler but nothing else.
So, after igniting so many posts with a negative campaign, did you contemplate for a moment how many did associate themselves with you, even partially (very few) and who totally (none). If you cannot convince anybody else to completely discredit an artist to the level you wish (and I can assure you this is very far from contributing to any "good" or "bad" in music criticism), maybe it's time to let it go.
By the way, Gramophone is not an establishment dealing with "criticism"; I don't think anyone needs that. Certain people of some good background (including amateur musicians by choice) offer their views, after "subjective listening" and they suggest a recommendation, that we take or leave it (based on our knowledge, experience, etc). I don't think anyone in Gramophone may claim they do more than simply contributing to reaching the Truth, which, however is...elusive and does not belong to anyone.
On a more personal note, please kindly read my posts more carefully and do not try to degrade me by trivializing what I claim. I said I happened to have known, seen and followed Bernstein (I didn't simply shake his hand). I do not use the "tag" of "amateur musician" as an extra credit, but simply to show that I am not talking as a mere listener (I don't "hear" Mahler; I listen to), but as someone who I am more involved with musicians, artists, producers, even critics, etc. So, my views somehow reflect, to a considerable extent, those of people in the business. They are not exclusive or exhaustive either.
Finally, if you really, genuinely love Classical Music get and treasure the message. As for the messenger, let him go...
Parla
Sat, Oct 29 2011, 1:20PM
#4
RE: Bernstein - good for Mahler but nothing else.
I wonder if many others share my disappointment and concern at the pervading tone of negativity on this forum recently. Music/composers you dislike/hate; conductors/performers who don't make your grade; inferior interpretations; other poster's comments/views/preferences disparaged.
I share your disappointment too, VicJayL. Unfortunately, it has the effect of making one not want to contribute to a discussion. In particular I am referring to some forum members (and one in particular) who, for want of a better description, lectures posters rather than engaging in discussion as if no one else knows anything about the subject than they do. On more than one occassion I have given up and let them have the last word as you cannot discuss something with someone who appears to know it all.
Nor do I feel it helpful to attack other forum members for having or not having a certain political ideology. There must be other forums out there if one wants to do that.
Sat, Oct 29 2011, 1:26PM
#5
RE: Bernstein - good for Mahler but nothing else.
Yet a few posts ago Vic, I was, in your words ' a simple bigot who was beneath contempt' and on another thread I was ' a nazi'. You don't seem to practise what you preach Vic old chap.
You use quotation marks here around "a nazi". Just where are you quoting from? When you state that you are unable to do so, I will be prepared to accept your apology.
On the other quote, a re-look at the posts where you give rein to your spiteful and irrational invective might think the comment rather mild in the circumstances.
And I think you overlook the word "beneath" in "beneath contempt". How could a rational person be affected by such ignorant outpourings that you sometimes indulge in? No. We inhabit different universes sir. It's pity not contempt.
Now can we talk about music. With tolerance and respect for viewpoints, if that's possible for you.
Vic.
Sat, Oct 29 2011, 2:02PM
#6
RE: Bernstein - good for Mahler but nothing else.
Yes sorry Vic, your reply to one of my comments on the Rigoletto thread stated 'Why am I thinking of Book burning' - Silly me, thinking you meant Nazi's, you were of course refering to the local library getting rid of some of it's stock. How silly am I, der..... You need to start being honest with yourself Vic or you'll get thrown out of the Communist party and have to join the Lib Dems. They don't mind a bit of fibbing.
(Back on Topic) - You're as false as Lenny Bernstein Vic
Sat, Oct 29 2011, 2:29PM
#7
RE: Bernstein - good for Mahler but nothing else.
Amazing! I go out to breakfast and then the beach with the family and come back to find more that a dozen new posts...
As Parla's appeal to myself and DrBrodsky I feel, for clarity's sake, to make one comment more on this thread. I attempt to be very careful with any post I make and much prefer dialogue to monologue. I found the exchange with DrBrodsky interesting and thought-provoking, which is surely the most we can expect from a online forum. At no point do I feel, from my point of view, that it degenerated into anything more than a debate between viewpoints and I am sorry if others see it this way. But we all have the power not to read threads if they become dull to us - just don't look, don't comment. It seems rather futile to get angry with somebody we will probably never meet or start trading insults.
All the above said (and written) I look forward to reading everybody's thoughts on other threads and will continue to add my own when I feel I have something to offer, rather than just getting it off my chest.
Sat, Oct 29 2011, 4:35PM
#8
RE: Bernstein - good for Mahler but nothing else.
In Rigoletto from Mantua, post 8.
DrBrodsky: "The BBC is as corrupt as any other corporation ... Burn it down and let's dance around the bonfire."
Book-burning sentiments?
Whatever prompts such bitterness and spite from you in a forum that should be discussing the power and beauty of music?
Vic.
Sat, Oct 29 2011, 5:02PM
#9
RE: Bernstein - good for Mahler but nothing else.
Very well said, Vic, but apparently even the music (and particularly this music) can be used for dubious and alien ends. You don't have to go far; see where we live in: crisis after crisis of every kind and, on top of that, some "saviours" who preach the newly conceived "good" over whatever conveniently might be "bad".
I hope eventually Music will prevail and we won't end up living "beneath" its joys and becoming "beneath one's notice". We'll see...
Parla
Sat, Oct 29 2011, 7:06PM
#10
RE: Bernstein - good for Mahler but nothing else.
I was watching 'Riot at the Rite' the other week. Fantastic, people being moved by music. I thought what has happened to classical music. When did it stop igniting passion. Why do most of the younger generation simply not care about it. Then I met Vic and Parla and all became clear.
Sat, Oct 29 2011, 7:28PM
#11
RE: Bernstein - good for Mahler but nothing else.
my own blind spots include Tarantino post 'Jackie Brown'
That's not a blind spot, just a demonstration of good taste. Tarantino believes he's parodying certain movie genres but in fact he's parodying himself these days, and none too cleverly.
This thread is beginning to recall the bickering contests between me and my brother 55 years ago. Mum used to end them by threatening to bang our heads together.
Come back, mum, I've got a job for you.
Sun, Oct 30 2011, 1:12AM
#12
RE: Bernstein - good for Mahler but nothing else.
Was that 'Riot at the Rite' produced by the BBC?
Riot at the Rite, indeed. I've heard wittier comments at Loftus Road on a Saturday afternoon.
Mon, Dec 19 2011, 9:05PM
#13
RE: Bernstein - good for Mahler but nothing else.
I think Bernstein's Mahler is grossly over rated. I have been listening a lot to recordings by Haitink, of Mahler's 6th and 9th symphonies and find that in these two symphonies a far straighter approach works better. I'm finding Haitink to be interesting in a lot of other works, Vaughan Williams 8th and 9th Symphonies and Bruckner 3rd and 8th symphonies. He is a conductor that can seem unemotional at times but he can get to the heart of the matter.
Mon, Dec 19 2011, 11:22PM
#14
RE: Bernstein - good for Mahler but nothing else.
I just want to add that n a recent article (Gramophone or Music BBC) Bernstein was voted second place in the top 100 conductors of all time. That's all folks.
Tue, Dec 20 2011, 1:00PM
#15
RE: Bernstein - good for Mahler but nothing else.
Deeply fascinated by this attempt to Debunk Bernstein and Karajan - this usually is more fashionable thing to do when they have just died. Has someone had a bad day already. I am not going to defend something that does not need any defence - but would like to say if these assertions were true it would not leave many people to admire.
Excuse the pause but have sat for a few moments admiring non operatic Karajan and non Mahler Bernstein.
Tell me about, say, Bruno Walter?
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In the field of music criticism there is indeed what is good and what is bad and why this is so. My point is that discussion of it can be in the context of tolerance and respect for individuals or intolerance and disrespect for individuals.
Vic.