Bruggen or Gardiner for Beethoven Symphonies?
Sat, Apr 28 2012, 3:10PM
I'm looking for an HIP set of Beethoven symphonies to supplement my Norrington set. Specifically, I'd like alternates for #5, 6, 7, and 9 -- to my ears, Norrington's 5th seems just a bit too hard-driven, and the 6th is somewhat lackluster in the middle movements. His account of the 7th is marvellous, except that I prefer a slightly slower 2nd movement. I find his 9th simply godawful (apologies to anybody who likes it). Norrington's other 5 suit me right down to the ground -- especially #3 and 8, which I consider the state of the art for those 2.
I've tried Hogwood's 7th, which seems anemic, and (gauging from online samples as well as reviews), I'm not sure Immerseel has enough fire in his belly for Beethoven. That leaves Bruggen and Gardiner. Any comments on either or both would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
Sat, Apr 28 2012, 7:56PM
#2
RE: Bruggen or Gardiner for Beethoven Symphonies?
From the title and mostly from the introductory text, it seems to me that you are interested only in "period instruments" performances of Beethoven's Symphonies. Is that the case? Please clarify this point, so that I may come with the relevant suggestions.
On another note, your forum name seems to come from Beethoven's last String Quartet's (in F, op. 135) last movement "difficult question" (Muss es sein? Es muss sein). Are you German, by the way?
Parla
Sat, Apr 28 2012, 9:06PM
#3
RE: Bruggen or Gardiner for Beethoven Symphonies?
Parla - Nope, I'm American. I happened to be listening to some of the late quartets this AM, so "muss es sein" just came to mind. And yes, my interest is in "period" performances only at this point, although I do keep Fricsay's 9th in my collection. Back in the (vinyl) day, I wore out Klemperer, Ormandy, Giulini, etc., and I'm finding that the HIP approach really freshens up this repertory for me. Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
Sat, Apr 28 2012, 9:07PM
#4
RE: Bruggen or Gardiner for Beethoven Symphonies?
Hugh -- If you wouldn't mind elaborating, what didn't you like about Gardiner's readings?
Sat, Apr 28 2012, 11:56PM
#5
RE: Bruggen or Gardiner for Beethoven Symphonies?
Hugh -- If you wouldn't mind elaborating, what didn't you like about Gardiner's readings?
Purely a personal opinion but I found them a little cold and lifeless. I've liked Gardiner in other recordings but these seemed to be a Beethoven without the love, fast and brutal but without the power.
Sun, Apr 29 2012, 12:03AM
#6
RE: Bruggen or Gardiner for Beethoven Symphonies?
On another note, your forum name seems to come from Beethoven's last String Quartet's (in F, op. 135) last movement "difficult question" (Muss es sein? Es muss sein). Are you German, by the way?
Parla
I thought he'd just spelled Messiaen wrongly.
Sun, Apr 29 2012, 12:06AM
#7
RE: Bruggen or Gardiner for Beethoven Symphonies?
Beethoven's Symphonies do not work pretty well on "period instruments". At least, as far as I am concerned (and I am not a minority on this matter). The same applies for the Concertos as well. Even Brautigam decided to perform them on a modern Steinway, with a straightforward Symphony Orchestra (on BIS, as usual).
In any case, for Symphonies 1&2 Hogwood sounds quite convincing, as Hugh suggested. Bruggen is a bit mannerist (Beethoven sounds closer to Bruggen than the other way round). Gardiner is the more balanced and with less histrionics and shocking rhythms or sounds. Immersel, though the most exciting, I found him too fast and furious.
I found the 3rd, 6th and 9th are the least well served by any of them. However, Manze has done the 3rd on Harmonia Mundi (in impressive SACD sound), with a sort of period instruments Symphony Orchestra. This performance (it includes some Dances and the Finale of the "Creatures of Prometheus") is a quite rewarding one.
Parla
Sun, Apr 29 2012, 12:58AM
#8
RE: Bruggen or Gardiner for Beethoven Symphonies?
I agree about Gardiner in that his are fast and furious but come across as quite brutal.
Hogwood is the exact opposite except in 7 which is one of the finest performances on disc HIP or otherwise.
Norrington is brilliant in 2, 6, 8 and 9. I find his 1 ordinary, his 3rd bland and the 5th is ruined by a trivial performance of the first movement (Bruggen is particularly strong, here) and I do not like his 7th.
Bruggen uses "authentic" instruments but tends to sound underweight in the string department. Try his 7th and see what you think. However, a selling point might be that Bruggen, for all his scholarship, tends to be very traditional in choices of tempo, phrasing, etc.
All I'm saying, at the end of the day, is that I do not find one conductor consistently satisfactory.
However, I may have come full circle in that hearing these performances for the first time almost twenty years ago, now, I welcomed the freshness, the "shaking off the cobwebs of centuries" etc but performance practice has moved on and modern orchestras, or orchestras with a mixture of period and modern instruments, can produce as satisfying, arguably better, results and performances.
As an example I'll cite Douglas Boyd's performance of the 7th with the Manchester Camerata. Clearly, such a performance could not have arisen without the period instrument movement but this has a relative small orchestra providing not only transparency but the requisite weight.
Sun, Apr 29 2012, 12:45PM
#9
RE: Bruggen or Gardiner for Beethoven Symphonies?
Parla wrote "Beethoven's symphonies do not not work pretty well on "period instruments"....the same applies for the concertos as well".
Goodness me, I agree 100% with Parla!!!
(And I find Norrington a musical joke; unlistenable conducting anything).
Sun, Apr 29 2012, 1:49PM
#10
RE: Bruggen or Gardiner for Beethoven Symphonies?
Thanks -- that corroborates some of the negative criticism I've seen in reviews, and balances some of the extravagant praise. I have Gardiner's Missa Solemnis, and find it generally satisfying but not the fire-breather it's claimed to be.
Sun, Apr 29 2012, 2:05PM
#11
RE: Bruggen or Gardiner for Beethoven Symphonies?
Beethoven's Symphonies do not work pretty well on "period instruments". At least, as far as I am concerned (and I am not a minority on this matter). The same applies for the Concertos as well. Even Brautigam decided to perform them on a modern Steinway, with a straightforward Symphony Orchestra (on BIS, as usual).
In any case, for Symphonies 1&2 Hogwood sounds quite convincing, as Hugh suggested. Bruggen is a bit mannerist (Beethoven sounds closer to Bruggen than the other way round). Gardiner is the more balanced and with less histrionics and shocking rhythms or sounds. Immersel, though the most exciting, I found him too fast and furious.
I found the 3rd, 6th and 9th are the least well served by any of them. However, Manze has done the 3rd on Harmonia Mundi (in impressive SACD sound), with a sort of period instruments Symphony Orchestra. This performance (it includes some Dances and the Finale of the "Creatures of Prometheus") is a quite rewarding one.
Parla
Parla -- Thanks for the detailed discussion. I read somewhere that Brautigam got frustrated with the limitations of the fortepiano (much like Beethoven himself) after recording the sonatas. Speaking of the concertos, I have the Hogwood/Lubin and find them very satisfying -- particularly #3 and 4. Hogwood's "softer" style (compared to Norrington) may be more appropriate to the concertos, which are not intrinsically as demanding or challenging as the symphonies.
I know that HIP applied to Beethoven is still controversial. To my ears, the raspy, less homogenized sound of the period orchestra is ideal for getting across Beethoven's experimentation and envelope-pushing. I agree with you regarding #6 and 9 -- in my experience, they've come off the least well in period performances. I'll have to give Immerseel another listen, and check out Manze -- hadn't heard about that one.
Sun, Apr 29 2012, 2:14PM
#12
RE: Bruggen or Gardiner for Beethoven Symphonies?
I agree about Gardiner in that his are fast and furious but come across as quite brutal.
Hogwood is the exact opposite except in 7 which is one of the finest performances on disc HIP or otherwise.
Norrington is brilliant in 2, 6, 8 and 9. I find his 1 ordinary, his 3rd bland and the 5th is ruined by a trivial performance of the first movement (Bruggen is particularly strong, here) and I do not like his 7th.
Bruggen uses "authentic" instruments but tends to sound underweight in the string department. Try his 7th and see what you think. However, a selling point might be that Bruggen, for all his scholarship, tends to be very traditional in choices of tempo, phrasing, etc.
All I'm saying, at the end of the day, is that I do not find one conductor consistently satisfactory.
However, I may have come full circle in that hearing these performances for the first time almost twenty years ago, now, I welcomed the freshness, the "shaking off the cobwebs of centuries" etc but performance practice has moved on and modern orchestras, or orchestras with a mixture of period and modern instruments, can produce as satisfying, arguably better, results and performances.
As an example I'll cite Douglas Boyd's performance of the 7th with the Manchester Camerata. Clearly, such a performance could not have arisen without the period instrument movement but this has a relative small orchestra providing not only transparency but the requisite weight.
Thanks. I've been trying to locate samples of the Bruggen cycle, but have been unsuccessful thus far, so your comments on his performances are very helpful. I agree that no one conductor is satisfactory -- if I had the shelf space (and the money!), I'd go for individual symphonies rather than sets, but I am just about out of room at the moment. I actually love the sound of period orchestras, so I had not considered the modern-instrument-HIP versions you mentioned. I'll give them a listen.
Sun, Apr 29 2012, 3:36PM
#13
RE: Bruggen or Gardiner for Beethoven Symphonies?
Thanks -- that corroborates some of the negative criticism I've seen in reviews, and balances some of the extravagant praise. I have Gardiner's Missa Solemnis, and find it generally satisfying but not the fire-breather it's claimed to be.
Try Herreweghe on DHM. You can say what you like about period instuments in Beethoven but you can't beat period voices.......!
Sun, Apr 29 2012, 4:03PM
#14
RE: Bruggen or Gardiner for Beethoven Symphonies?
I agree about Gardiner in that his are fast and furious but come across as quite brutal.
Hogwood is the exact opposite except in 7 which is one of the finest performances on disc HIP or otherwise.
Norrington is brilliant in 2, 6, 8 and 9. I find his 1 ordinary, his 3rd bland and the 5th is ruined by a trivial performance of the first movement (Bruggen is particularly strong, here) and I do not like his 7th.
Bruggen uses "authentic" instruments but tends to sound underweight in the string department. Try his 7th and see what you think. However, a selling point might be that Bruggen, for all his scholarship, tends to be very traditional in choices of tempo, phrasing, etc.
All I'm saying, at the end of the day, is that I do not find one conductor consistently satisfactory.
However, I may have come full circle in that hearing these performances for the first time almost twenty years ago, now, I welcomed the freshness, the "shaking off the cobwebs of centuries" etc but performance practice has moved on and modern orchestras, or orchestras with a mixture of period and modern instruments, can produce as satisfying, arguably better, results and performances.
As an example I'll cite Douglas Boyd's performance of the 7th with the Manchester Camerata. Clearly, such a performance could not have arisen without the period instrument movement but this has a relative small orchestra providing not only transparency but the requisite weight.
Thanks. I've been trying to locate samples of the Bruggen cycle, but have been unsuccessful thus far, so your comments on his performances are very helpful. I agree that no one conductor is satisfactory -- if I had the shelf space (and the money!), I'd go for individual symphonies rather than sets, but I am just about out of room at the moment. I actually love the sound of period orchestras, so I had not considered the modern-instrument-HIP versions you mentioned. I'll give them a listen.
It occurs to me that the symphonies can be accommodated on 5 CDs and it is likely as not that you can find any set on special offer somewhere.
Sun, Apr 29 2012, 7:25PM
#15
RE: Bruggen or Gardiner for Beethoven Symphonies?
Mussessein, I don't believe that is a plausible argument that Brautigam recorded Beethoven's Concertos because "got frustrated with the limitations of the fortepiano after recording the Sonatas". If you're not aware, he keeps recording the Piano works of Beethoven and he started the cycle of Mozart's Piano Concertos.
I hope you may find a cycle of the Symphonies (with period instruments) that can fit in your perception. I haven't...yet.
Parla
It doesn't answer your question but Hogwood is excellent in 1 and 2, and Zinman is likewise in 3 and 4. That's as far as I've got (in keeping) post Klemperer, Furtwangler, Kleiber etc Beethoven. Will attempt a modern 5, 6 and 7 (post Kleiber in all 3) in the next couple of years, but I have heard Gardiner's DG recordings of 3, 5 and 9 and didn't rate them very highly.