Bruggen or Gardiner for Beethoven Symphonies?
Thu, May 3 2012, 4:59AM
#2
RE: Bruggen or Gardiner for Beethoven Symphonies?
At least, that's what I've been assuming. Let me give you some details of this recording according to the booklet:
1. Recorded in the Salle Wagram - Paris on 8 & 9 November 1957/L'ORTF (and 14 may 1958);
2. Producer: Victor Olof and Balance engineer: Paul Vavasseur;
3. the fillers (overtures to Le roi lear - 1947/RPO & Le carnaval romain -1936/LPO) were transferred from 78s by Michael J. Dutton;
4. I. Reverie & Passions takes 12:04 min - II. Un Bal takes 05:56 min - III. Scene aux champs .....13:31 - IV. Marche au supplice...04:54 - V. Songe ......09:55.
5. CD/Booklet says Mono ADD.
Comments?
Thu, May 3 2012, 12:07PM
#3
RE: Bruggen or Gardiner for Beethoven Symphonies?
At least, that's what I've been assuming. Let me give you some details of this recording according to the booklet:
1. Recorded in the Salle Wagram - Paris on 8 & 9 November 1957/L'ORTF (and 14 may 1958);
2. Producer: Victor Olof and Balance engineer: Paul Vavasseur;
3. the fillers (overtures to Le roi lear - 1947/RPO & Le carnaval romain -1936/LPO) were transferred from 78s by Michael J. Dutton;
4. I. Reverie & Passions takes 12:04 min - II. Un Bal takes 05:56 min - III. Scene aux champs .....13:31 - IV. Marche au supplice...04:54 - V. Songe ......09:55.
5. CD/Booklet says Mono ADD.
Comments?
That must be the mono as my stereo gives times of 12:35, 6:38, 16:15, 5:12, 10:40 respectively. Clearly, a completely different, and slower, performance.
Neither disc or booklet gives a recording date other than "late fifties" and the producer and engineer are the same.
When was your CD issued?
Thu, May 3 2012, 3:16PM
#4
RE: Bruggen or Gardiner for Beethoven Symphonies?
1991. If Google served me right it seems there are two versions w/ L'ORTF: Mono (1957/58) and one stereo, favoured by EMI in several editions (Dec/1959): the former is considered to be the best by many.
That's the one I got: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Symphonie-Fantastique-Berlioz/dp/B00000DO9B/ref=...
Check Troyen1, this mono edition is deleted but from Amazon/USA you can import one new (Amazon Marketplace) for as low as US$16 (or about 10 SP ) + shipping: those sellers are usually reliable: never had a problem importing a single disc from Amazon/Marketplace. Cheers.
Fri, May 4 2012, 1:04AM
#5
RE: Bruggen or Gardiner for Beethoven Symphonies?
1991. If Google served me right it seems there are two versions w/ L'ORTF: Mono (1957/58) and one stereo, favoured by EMI in several editions (Dec/1959): the former is considered to be the best by many.
That's the one I got: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Symphonie-Fantastique-Berlioz/dp/B00000DO9B/ref=...
Check Troyen1, this mono edition is deleted but from Amazon/USA you can import one new (Amazon Marketplace) for as low as US$16 (or about 10 SP ) + shipping: those sellers are usually reliable: never had a problem importing a single disc from Amazon/Marketplace. Cheers.
So, EMI, appears to have issued the stereo version before the mono.
My stereo is actually EMI/Angel.
Thanks for the info.
Fri, May 4 2012, 2:24AM
#6
RE: Bruggen or Gardiner for Beethoven Symphonies?
I just emailed one of the Amazon sellers, 'smilehelp', to make sure it's the mono they have in stock, not the EMI stereo. Thanks 78RPM.
Fri, May 4 2012, 2:43AM
#7
RE: Bruggen or Gardiner for Beethoven Symphonies?
Wise move Tagalie: a seller could link to that page but actually has the stereo version: a detail that he didn't noticed and thought it was the same recording. This mono version is:EMI CDM 764032-2. Good luck.
Fri, May 4 2012, 6:10PM
#8
RE: Bruggen or Gardiner for Beethoven Symphonies?
Here's my email and the response:
I just want to make sure that the cd of Berlioz Symphony Fantastique that you're selling for $16 is the mono version that includes Roi Lear and the Carnaval Romain, NOT the EMI stereo version that includes other overtures.
"EMI classics," "MONO"
Roi Lear included
carnaval too
It's not often you get a chance to rectify a 43 year-old purchasing error.
Sat, May 5 2012, 12:54AM
#9
RE: Bruggen or Gardiner for Beethoven Symphonies?
Here's my email and the response:
I just want to make sure that the cd of Berlioz Symphony Fantastique that you're selling for $16 is the mono version that includes Roi Lear and the Carnaval Romain, NOT the EMI stereo version that includes other overtures.
"EMI classics," "MONO"
Roi Lear included
carnaval too
It's not often you get a chance to rectify a 43 year-old purchasing error.
23 years in my case as I had the original mono on LP and bought the Concert Classics stereo.
At $16 dollars it can wait another 23 years as far as I'm concerned.
Sun, May 6 2012, 2:55PM
#10
RE: Bruggen or Gardiner for Beethoven Symphonies?
Bruggen is maybe one of the most underrated conductors of today.
Having now listened once to Bruggen's 9th, and twice to his 5th and 7th, I am prepared to agree with you unreservedly. This is music I've known for 40 years, much of it is committed to memory, and I've already been through the seismic upheavals of Norrington's renditions. But I have to say Bruggen's account of the 7th symphony finale astonished me -- it felt absolutely new again: harsh, sinewy, challenging, exhilarating. I thought Norrington owned the 3rd, but now I can't wait to hear what Bruggen's got to say about that one as well!
Sun, May 6 2012, 6:27PM
#11
RE: Bruggen or Gardiner for Beethoven Symphonies?
I thought Norrington owned the 3rd, but now I can't wait to hear what Bruggen's got to say about that one as well!
Savalls Eroica is also worth listening to.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opXAUbtcXsc
Mon, May 7 2012, 12:32AM
#12
RE: Bruggen or Gardiner for Beethoven Symphonies?
Bruggen is maybe one of the most underrated conductors of today.
Having now listened once to Bruggen's 9th, and twice to his 5th and 7th, I am prepared to agree with you unreservedly. This is music I've known for 40 years, much of it is committed to memory, and I've already been through the seismic upheavals of Norrington's renditions. But I have to say Bruggen's account of the 7th symphony finale astonished me -- it felt absolutely new again: harsh, sinewy, challenging, exhilarating. I thought Norrington owned the 3rd, but now I can't wait to hear what Bruggen's got to say about that one as well!
I think Bruggen's Eroica is, arguably, the highlight of his cycle and it is the first of the Bruggen cycle I bought.
May I also direct you to his account of the violin concerto with Zehetmair, if you do not know it already?
Mon, May 7 2012, 12:40AM
#13
RE: Bruggen or Gardiner for Beethoven Symphonies?
May I also direct you to his account of the violin concerto with Zehetmair, if you do not know it already?
I do have the Bruggen/Zehetmair violin concerto -- very appealing. Thanks for the thought!
Mon, Dec 31 2012, 9:59AM
#14
RE: Bruggen or Gardiner for Beethoven Symphonies?
I know that you may think that I am a walking advertisement for the Gardiner set of Beethoven. I've loved it tremendously ever since DG released it in 1994. I know that many classical music forums have unease with the "overhauled" interpretations of Beethoven from Gardiner, Norrington and their colleagues. However, this Gardiner set is a wonderful, excellent cycle, musically engaging yet stylistically accurate. It helps that it was done a little later on in the learning-curve of period instruments and historically informed practices. In recent months I listened to it and compared it to some other cycles and I find that it is not as alienating as some may realise. I like the way that the ORR packs a punch for its size. Also I like it that Gardiner's tempi in some movements is slightly slover than Beethoven's markings and even Chailly's tempi in corresponding passages. I take the slow movement of the Fourth and the Eroica finale as examples. Interestingly, the tempo of the Pastoral first movement is steady and calls Karajan to mind. So as a young 30-something from Singapore I've loved this cycle a lot and wouldn't hesitate to recommending it to you.
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Which Beecham's Fantastique are you talking about? I got the 1957/58 mono recording w/ Orquestre National de l'ORTF (together w/ Overtures recorded on 40's -RPO & 30's-PO) on a EMI/CD (Beecham Edition) and it seems that it is available now in another EMI series.
This is a great recording and one of my favourites Fantastique together w/ Davis (the one w/ RCO-Philips) and, of course, Charles Munch:you may choose the version: all are great: I got a slight preference for the one from the early 60's (RCA).
There is only one, as far as I know.
I had both on LP at one time and lent out the mono never to see it again as the borrower died!
I bought a CD version in January 1989, published in 1987, and the booklet notes state it is a restoration to the catalogues of the stereo version praised by Denis Stevens in Gramophone.
However, I remember Malcolm MacDonald damning it, noting, for example, how the brass tugged on the strings in the Marche (this from memory).
The couplings are Le Corsaire overture and The Royal Hunt and Storm and the engineers and producers are listed for each work.
So, are you absolutely certain this is the mono version as it has been assumed for years that EMI favoured the stereo to the extent of suppressing the mono?