Check this out if you dare.
Sat, Jan 7 2012, 11:14AM
#2
RE: Check this out if you dare.
Although I agree there should be room for fun in classical music, I don't think this is it. If it is funny, then it is funny for about 2 seconds, unfortunately the clip lasts for much longer. The fun seems to be the fact that the player is smiling whilst playing, like a fool laughing at his own joke. What this is, is merely a marketing exercise. It will appeal to those who prefer lager and fish'n'chips to haute cuisine and fine wine, it seems there are many out there.
Sat, Jan 7 2012, 12:04PM
#3
RE: Check this out if you dare.
....It will appeal to those who prefer lager and fish'n'chips to haute cuisine and fine wine, it seems there are many out there.
Utter snobbish, judgemental clap trap. What are your thoughts on the BBC?
Sat, Jan 7 2012, 5:20PM
#4
RE: Check this out if you dare.
It will appeal to those who prefer lager and fish'n'chips to haute cuisine and fine wine, it seems there are many out there.
Well I'm not much of a drinker but I have always been more fish pie than lobster thermidor. I wasn't aware that this might prevent me from appreciating good music.
Finding the YouTube clip a bit of fun does not infer that I 'prefer' it to the original.
Sat, Jan 7 2012, 5:43PM
#5
RE: Check this out if you dare.
Of course not, Chris, but it may infer that your preference of the original might be "a bit" loose and you appreciation of it somehow compromised.
Parla
Sat, Jan 7 2012, 6:46PM
#6
RE: Check this out if you dare.
Of course not, Chris, but it may infer that your preference of the original might be "a bit" loose and you appreciation of it somehow compromised.
Parla
So, in translation: the inference of your post, Chris, is that your appreciation of the original falls below that of the cognoscenti (like your correspondent) and now that you have seen this clip, your future ability to appreciate it is somewhat diminished.
Vic.
Sat, Jan 7 2012, 6:54PM
#7
RE: Check this out if you dare.
Of course not, Chris, but it may infer that your preference of the original might be "a bit" loose and you appreciation of it somehow compromised.
Unbelievable!
Sat, Jan 7 2012, 7:02PM
#8
RE: Check this out if you dare.
So, in translation: the inference of your post, Chris, is that your appreciation of the original falls below that of the cognoscenti (like your correspondent) and now that you have seen this clip, your future ability to appreciate it is somewhat diminished.
Yes Vic, apparently I am unworthy and should confine myself to listening to ClassicFM and crossover albums. I guess I will just have to live with my inferiority.
Sat, Jan 7 2012, 10:28PM
#9
RE: Check this out if you dare.
Of course not, Chris, but it may infer that your preference of the original might be "a bit" loose and you appreciation of it somehow compromised.
I am INCENSED at this comment. Only YOU know what's best. I vowed never to follow/reply to another Parla comment. Parla having not yet seen the video clip in question can't you see what an idiot you are making yourself to be? For God's sake desist from this forum and give us all pleasure from your absence.
Remove yourself back to your land of make-believe, with your so-called 'classical friends/musicians' that are clearly only in your head. I am so tired of your B.S.!
You have killed this forum.
Sun, Jan 8 2012, 1:26AM
#10
RE: Check this out if you dare.
So, in translation: the inference of your post, Chris, is that your appreciation of the original falls below that of the cognoscenti (like your correspondent) and now that you have seen this clip, your future ability to appreciate it is somewhat diminished.
Yes Vic, apparently I am unworthy and should confine myself to listening to ClassicFM and crossover albums. I guess I will just have to live with my inferiority.
Never mind, Chris, you could always listen whilst nibbling on one of Reggie Perrin's favourite dishes, lobster thermostat whilst crying over your cultural inadequacy now that it's been pointed out to you!
Sun, Jan 8 2012, 5:15AM
#11
RE: Check this out if you dare.
My apologies to you, Chris, if you took my remark as a clear hint of your inferiority or inadequacy in appreciating Bach's original work. The compromise of our appreciation is not a matter of being inferior (our ability) but, mostly, of our will (decision) to go that way. That was my point, with no offense for anyone's decisions.
As usually...
Atonal, you don't have to go that far. You may "kill", in your unwilling way, the forum and be careful with the "make believe" thing: that's offensive, inappropriate and... I'm not at all a lonely or anything else you may imply person. Above all, we don't know each other! So, at least, we have to respect whatever we represent in this forum.
For all those who think (or believe) that I make myself an idiot because I make any judgement before I see the specific clip, I had made mayself clear, in advance, about this kind of experiments, fun and whatever else (variation, that was an "appropriate" word) you may call these clips. I will be surprised if I have to say something different, when I actualy see it. Definitely, I might have to add comments to this direction. In any case, I think Gottfried's comments may cover me, for the moment.
Finally, my elusive point was this: Do you (we) know, command, own these classical works (in this case, the complex, difficult, masterful Cello Suites of Bach), so that we may have room to have some fun with them? I don't, despite listening to them for years, having all the possible known and unknown recordings and having attended some live concerts. Cellists, who, somehow, command these works, sometimes "play" with the score, making some kind of fun in the rehearsals, but only to come back to the original, with a view to mastering their performance. And they never go in public to present their fun.
Parla
Sun, Jan 8 2012, 12:16PM
#12
RE: Check this out if you dare.
I had made mayself clear, in advance, about this kind of experiments, fun and whatever else (variation, that was an "appropriate" word) you may call these clips. ...
Finally, my elusive point was this: Do you (we) know, command, own these classical works (in this case, the complex, difficult, masterful Cello Suites of Bach), so that we may have room to have some fun with them? ...
Parla
<!--
@page { margin: 2cm }
P { margin-bottom: 0.21cm }
-->
Utterly unconvincing.
It takes a peculiar and disturbing sense of
certainty to maintain Parla's level of claiming "truth"
through so many thousands of words in hundreds of posts on every
single topic raised on this forum. He is always right and
others are always wrong. But it reaches the height of absurdity
when it comes to something he has not seen for himself and is in no
position to judge.
His inability to see what a fool he makes of
himself time and time again, his imperviousness to several reasoned
analyses of his contributions (Craig's being the latest of the many
posted), the dogged and persistent pursuit of the voice of authority
on each and every issue, is beginning to suggest a question mark over
his sense of reality.
Consider: he is supposedly on holiday on the other
side of the world but long and detailed posts continue to flood in;
he claims "blinkered and obsessive absolutism" as a virtue
in defence of his “cause”; he suggests Chris' opinion of
something he (Parla) has not seen is evidence of faulty judgement on
Chris' part and that will impair future appreciation; he claims
classical music is evidence of the existence of god; he believes that
only professionals like himself have the authority - yes, he uses the
word authority - to judge what is great in music; he has at least
once stolen information to pass off as his own; he invents details in
a futile attempt to "prove" that record companies sabotage
their reissued catalogue to produce an inferior product; he has no
sense of irony and affects hurt at humour directed at him; he asserts
that music can be evaluated through means other than listening to it;
he thinks the rape of a child is a suitable analogy for what he sees
as criticism of artistic integrity; his posts often ramble into
incoherence in desperate attempts at self-justification; no statement
that has caused shock, disdain or upset has ever elicited regret or
apology; and on and on it goes.
This is obsessive monomania, which by his own
admission eschews reason and logic in defence against the supposed
persecution of (classical-only) great music. This
right-enshrined greatness which only those sanctified by professional
association like his can appreciate, justifies claims to his
superiority and every detractor's inferiority.
And then there is his undoubted wide-ranging
knowledge of classical music. But knowledge can be used as a
weapon and he so wields it. Almost everyone else on this forum
passes on knowledge and experience to enlighten, to enhance
enjoyment. Parla uses it to belittle, to bolster self-esteem,
to cloak something we probably do not wish to intrude upon.
In any case, in my opinion, and as stated by
others here, his contributions diminish rather than enhance what this
forum exists to promote. His obsessive, self-promoting and
pathetic pleas for the recognition of his superiority are to be
pitied rather than condemned perhaps. But he is devalued,
damaged goods, as far as I am concerned, and I for one cannot and
will not continue to engage with a mind so closed to reasoned
argument or the possibility of being mistaken about anything and
everything.
Vic.
Sun, Jan 8 2012, 2:43PM
#13
RE: Check this out if you dare.
I bet Bernstein, Brendel, Uchida, Lang Lang, Sutherland, Horne, Taddei, Kremer and Bach think / would have thought that the you tube clip rocks!
Sun, Jan 8 2012, 3:24PM
#14
Check this out if you dare.
My apologies to you, Chris, if you took my remark as a clear hint of your inferiority or inadequacy in appreciating Bach's original work. The compromise of our appreciation is not a matter of being inferior (our ability) but, mostly, of our will (decision) to go that way. That was my point, with no offense for anyone's decisions.
Parla,
Your posts often leave me bemused and occasionally astonished but, so far, not offended. However your comment above does bring to mind the expression "If you find yourself in a hole, stop digging!".
My ability to accept, appreciate and enjoy both Bach's original and the YouTube clip, each at their own level, does not require any compromise, only a mind more open than yours appears to be.
Sun, Jan 8 2012, 3:43PM
#15
RE: Check this out if you dare.
Despite your vow not to engage in any kind of discourse with me, I see you "honoured" me, once more, with such a thesis on me, or actually what Parla means to you. The problem is that you present it as a fact, as a certainty (absolute?), not peculiar and, of course not disturbing to you. One might have to wonder at your sense of reality, but I won't. It's none of my (and anybody else's) business.
For your information, if it can pass through the almost unpenetrable obssesion of a vehement defense of a nebulous rationalism and absolute atheism, I have never ever claimed or stated, in any possible way, that classical music is evidence of the existence of God; I simply, as quite a few others, answered, in the relevant thread "Searching God in Classical Music", in a positive way. That means I can find God in Classical Music for all the reasons I stated in detail and not, because of that, Classical Music is an evidence of the existence of God. For a believer, this is possible, even if it is irrational for an (absolute) atheist. I hoped that the atheist could have this tolerant understanding (the open mind) to accept this fact only and not to jump to dubious conclusions, which, eventually, are going to be used (as evidence !) against the other side.
The fact that I am on holiday and still wish and can contribute to the forum should be not considered as a strange behaviour, but as a commitment to it. All these five months, in my very hectic professional schedule, I never ceased to participate, with the same passion I dedicate to my loved ones, to my profession and to my involvement in Classical Music. So, what's the big deal?
I really admire your perception (to put it in the most polite way) of the only positive aspect of me, the knowledge factor. So, you went to that point to claim I used it as a weapon and as a recognition of my superiority. Once, you urged me not to box shadows. It's my turn to urge you the same thing and seriously!
If I am concerned about one thing, it is the actual position of Classical Music, particularly within its own boundaries, where it has been created and developed. Having been in quite a few places of the globe, I can claim that it is the greatest and the most undisputable asset of our civilisation.
If I can be once more clear (even for you Vic), I just claim that the music-making (the composition process) is not a matter of rational discourse but of a specific and uncontestable established way of writing music. Based on the best possible command and use of this "established" way, the composition is first judged for its artistic (its musical) value. To this end, anybody who at least can read, can comprehend this language of writing music has the authority (the expertise) to judge the composition, at this stage. Of course, the end product of composition is for the listeners everywhere, who are going to give it its position in society, in history and so on, namely its popularity.
So, from my part, I tried so many times to defend this dual process of music-making and I stated, on different occasions, that I defend and care about the first part to be recognised, so that listeners can have a map, a guidance how this music (the Classical) has been created, developed and evaluated artistically. If the Cello Suites of Bach are called the best music written for the instrument is not a judgement of predilection and preference of the listeners but from those who have the authority (cellists, musicians, composers, experts, etc.). Even if I don't like to listen to them, I know, respect and appreciate (I recognise) their position in the music for Cello, Chamber Music and so on.
Atonal, in another thread, thanked me yesterday for a post there and urged me to "stop the pedantic verbose, multi-paragraph waffle that has become my trade mark". As an ally of yours, I understand he cannot apply the same advice to you, Vic. However, to Parla, you may sound and look, sometimes, something like that. Think, at the end of the day, what is your contributions (your positive and musical ones) to these forum(s). How many times you enlighten us about anything on any aspect of Classical Music vis a vis to your endless and very vehement posts on atheism, on rational discourse, on the diversity of music and some more (lately on absolutism !). Your last achievement was this thread targeting another member of the forum to attract his obvious reaction and stir some relevant attack from other members too. Bravo!
Atonal, I had to respond, in this multi-paragraph way. I sincerely hope we may stick only to Classical Music from now on, for the benefit of all members and for the sake of the forum.
Parla
To my old pal Vic, first: No, it wouldn't hurt at all. It might simply bother me, but I'm looking forward to watching it, anyway.
However, since previous posters, particularly Martin, have already "photographed" this clip, I have to state that Bach's Cello Suites are the most sacred works in the entire Music for cello. Cellists bow at them and they pray they will be, one day, able to perform them properly. Rostropovich was terrified to perform them in public, while he could perform Dvorak's extremely demanding concerto almost at any occasion. So, any "intervention" or "variation" cannnot be but, at least, irritating to people devoted to Classical tradition. Nonetheless, I'll let you know, if I am allowed, eventually, to see it.
Guillaume, thanks for the extremely useful lesson on forum etiquette, which, however, I found it very loosely implemented in its entirety, since abusive language, as a way to rationalise arguments, is used in abundance and, sometimes, in the extreme.
"Parla" is the imperative of the verb "parlare" (to speak). So, it means, simply "speak (out)". Which I believe is the essence of a sort of free forum. If it was a singing forum, I might have chosen the pseudonym "canta".
As for the general etiquette attitude of mine, I am simply true to myself and any other member of these forum(s) I address to. So, maybe, some may recognise this fact, along with my "evident appreciation and knowledge of music" that even you may underscore. Some have even thanked me for my small contribution to "enlighten" them, as you urge me to do it, in another way.
Despite I appear to pretend I know more than others, I'm not looking for anything like that. I just present what I know and, of course, I defend and support it, in a debate that, often, resorts to areas completely outside Music and Classical Music in particular. People can easily feel irritated, when debate is pushed to a possible resolution that, normally, might not be the case in these forum(s), where only exchange of "opinions", "taste" (whatever it means in Music or Art; in quite a few other languages I happen to know, this word is used mostly for food or colours or about personal choices, but never for evaluating any work of Art) and undeveloped views expressed and simply exchanged.
I have stated, in different posts of mine, that I have studied music but I decided not to deal with it professionally, for personal reasons, but I have always been close to old and new friends, who, though they are professionals, they will always remain unsung heroes in an industry and business that only the tip of the iceberg is seen and judged accordingly. The rest are serving, with all their dedication and expertise, this great Art form of our occidental civilisation, despite recognition, rewards or awards, financial compensation or any kind of promotion.
I have also mentioned, at certain occassions, that, by serving this Music, I decided, in the margin of my profession, to become a sort of (unofficial) producer and artistic director of concerts of Chamber Music, mostly for countries, where Classical Music is in demand, but there is very little infrastructure for that, like in some more "advanced" countries in Africa and in Asia (Latin America may follow, one day). In this capacity, I work very closely with all of them, I commisssion transcriptions and arrangements and I am in close cooperation with them in almost all the rehearsals. So, I am not in "constant consultation" with them, but rather I am one of them. Besides, these "unsung heroes", I have had the opportunity to know, in my various travelling and living in different countries, some well known artists, like Bernstein, Brendel, Uchida, Lang Lang, Sutherland, Horne, Taddei, Kremer etc., with whom I had the chance to exchange views and learn some more about this Music and its composers.
Thanks for the good wishes too, Guillaume. Have a promising New Year!
Parla