This thread is an exemplar of why I am leaving Gramophone Forum, and indeed Gramophone, behind.
I just don't have time for the stuck up elitist nonsense on display.
No wonder people turn their backs on the classical music world.
Yes,I agree with you totally.I find myself coming to this forum just to learn a bit about human nature.I sometimes go to YouTube for the same reason.Amazing!It doesn`t matter what the clip is about,you can bet there will be all kinds of "back biting" in the comments even foul language.There are more than a couple of people on these(Gramophone) forums who never seem to ever discuss MUSIC(just each other)!
Join the club. In fairness to Gramophone, the malaise that afflicts this forum is hardly unique. Anonymity is a two-edged sword, as is ease of access. They can promote open discussion, an interesting range of views, and humour. They also allow free rein to bores, cyber warriors, people with no grasp of logic or the basic rules of debate. So be it. It's the nature of the beast. I've much enjoyed discussions with some forum members, past and present, and if the whole thing has worn rather thin I accept that's my problem, not Gramophone's.
Newspapers are facing similar issues, trying to find a balance between open access and meaningful discourse on their web sites. I'm watching with interest as the debate continues. My guess is the first thing to go will be anonymity, and maybe that's no bad thing.
Hi Tagalie! Good to hear from you again.
I think to the last three posters and others, that what is happening now is fairly apparent.
Too much pontificating is leading to strong critcal analyses by others.
Well, the fact that some members are attempting to reason and question and critically analyse is, of course, a massively positive thing, but it is obvious that exasperation is now creeping in from some of us, and also from those standing on the sidelines as it were and watching what is happening.
As a general tip Tagalie and others, I have found in the past that if I drop off for 3 or 4 months while I get on with mundane stuff like work, and some more interesting stuff like listening, that the air can have cleared a bit when I get back.
So I think I might be joining you guys for a short break...
In the meantime, all the best everyone...
I hear you, Mark. I did take a month or so off, and it's been disappointing to return and find some of the same crap going on. Never mind, as you say there's a boatload of other ways to occupy your time and there's enough good input on here to warrant an occasional check-back. It was from posts on this forum that I discovered, or rediscovered, two musical corners that have been occupying me for the past month: Bax's chamber music (until recently I've spent far less time with it than his orchestral stuff) and the Brian cd featuring symphonies 10 and 30. 10 is intriguing, such a different take on the work from the old Leicestershire Schools version. It underlines that recordings of Brian to date are certainly not the last word on this composer.
Tagalie, first of all, welcome back!
You are not the only one who is distressed, disappointed or frustrated with this situation in the forum. Probably, most of us are. However, to start calling names for the forum, like "crap", "pontification" and "elitism" is not resolving the problem, while the escape of "I'm out", "I take my leave (or my sabbatical) and so on is an easy way out, avoiding the situation and dealing with some more mundane things, as Mark stated.
However, if we all agree to stick to threads on Classical Music, as this forum is to be, then, I trust, we all, at least, will try to abide, since we mostly have to reply to musical subjects rather to theoretical issues and, much worse, to questions on other subjects than Classical Music. Recently, the threads on Daniel Harding or on Mozart's String Quartets or live performances of Beethoven's String Quartets were examples of very quite, civilised and informative exchanges. Alas, with few or very few replies. So, let's set the pace (again) and we'll see...
As a small preview: since you appreciated the chamber music of Bax, have you tried the chamber music of Bridge (there is the whole series of his very interesting and important String Quartets on Meridian as well as the complete music for Cello and Piano on Somm: wonderful music!) or of Alwyn (there are two delightful discs on Naxos with his major chamber works)?Besides, on Lyrita, you may still find a unique CD on the chamber music of Howels (!), the otherwise significant composer, known almost exclusively for his Choral masterworks.
So, we may have plenty to exchange on Classical Music topics only. Hopefully so...
You are not the only one who is distressed, disappointed or frustrated with this situation in the forum ...
I'll bet! But the cause of most of it is not going to be allowed to be swept under the carpet so easily. The reminders of past insults to the integrity of posters on this forum will not cease until Parla shows greater respect for opinions that differ from his own.
It will undoubtedly frustrate some. But there are many more here with good cause to expect change, if not apology.
It is, for this poster, a matter of debate within honourable bounds. Of the several points I list earlier, which, if any could not be considered dishonourable to the poster so addressed?
When we try to heal a wound that had some dire consequences to this forum, it's not fair to try to keep this same wound open, Vic. "Past insults to the integrity of posters" have taken place almost all the time and affected quite a few of us (I was quite often the victim of any possible attack).
The "greater respect for opinions" of others is given, provided we discussed on the basis of opinions. In any case, opinions are for everyone (Quot capita tot sensus or quot homines tot sententiae). However, sometimes, the matter goes to the essence or the role or the significance of Classical Music...That's why I proposed to avoid any further discussion on this subject. In any case, somehow, we have exhausted several aspects of it, by exhausting ourselves.
So, change is expected and is committed from my side upon the expectation that the above condition will be observed; as for apologies, they were given to those addressed, when necessary, though nobody (or almost) cared for any apology to me, when I have been so often offended, attacked, etc.
So, let's have our future debates (actually the topics and threads; it's not always about debates) within honourable bounds!
Finally, the "list of several points" was about not addressed to Parla, as you clarified in a previous post. So, I commented on them but I don't have to reply, not that much because of that, but mostly on account of the damage has already been done, primarily, by virtue of this thread. As for this so beautiful latin " Qui tacet consentire (videtur ubi loqui debuit ac potuit)", I have to reply...perhaps with "Omnia dicta fortiosa si dicta Latina".
So, let's look ahead, stick to the music and progress may come.
Parla, first of all thanks for the welcome. It wasn't so much an easy way out, for me to stop visiting this forum, as an acceptance that the best way to end pain is to stop banging your head against a brick wall. If I say that on occasion you've been part of that wall, let's leave it at that and go forward.
Yes, I've tried the chamber music of Alwyn, Bridge. Alwyn I like aside from his occasional lapses into rhetoric, Howells is OK in a sort of warmed-over way. Bridge is a blind spot for me. He's admired by so many people I respect but I just can't find the key. Foulds' chamber music is interesting.
Incidentally, for anyone Bax-curious, let me recommend the Chandos recording of String Quartet 1, the Piano Quartet and the Harp Quintet. For all the times I've listened to the much-recorded and very beautiful Harp Quintet, this version leaves me wondering if I've ever heard it before. An amazing disc cleverly disguised by the dreariest of photos on the cover.
Acouple of years ago I fell upon Bax's Clarinet Sonatas the two-movement D major sonata is just wonderful.
Pause for thought.
Well spotted, Atonal! The Clarinet Sonatas of Bax are by now established (not yet well) in the repertory of the instrument.
Speaking of Bax, try, if not yet, the wonderful Oboe Quintet. The one and quite good version I still remember is the one on BIS, along with the Oboe Quintet of Bliss and The Phantasy Quartet of Britten. I hope it is still available. The very good in exploring English music Naxos label has two delightful CDs on Bax's Violin Sonatas and one on the Viola works (Sonata, Concert Piece and the Trio).
In the same vein, Naxos has recorded two CDs on the Chamber Music of Bliss, quite interesting for not a front runner of the English Music. Dutton has also an historical recording with Qrillen Quartet playing the String Quartets of Bliss.
Parla, I'm guessing that was not the easiest of your posts to write. If I have interpreted it correctly, you recognise some validity in my summary of what may have caused offence to several posters in the past, and so thus look forward to a, shall we say, more reflective, exchanges of viewpoints and opinions in the future between posters who disagree.
It reads to me as something of an olive branch and I am happy, no, keen to take it from your hand. If it was so intended, thank you and well done.
You will, I hope, anticipate that the expression of your undoubtedly passionately held views might always be received more strongly than you intend.
With the further hope that our words can reside in the past, and while remaining a matter of record be no longer required.
The need to move on has been clearly expressed here, even by those who have felt (like yourself) somewhat aggrieved, so let us do so.
And in this spirit I urge you, plead with you in fact, to view the Bach clip in the spirit it is intended: with humour, as fun, with a sense of irony - that I just have to believe would have been shared by the great man himself!
Best wishes for a safe journey home on the 15th.
So, peace is in the air, Vic. That's good not that much for us, but mostly for all the...others, I guess.
Your guessing was partly correct whether that specific post was not one of my easiest, since almost every post, dealing with issues beyond music or about the essence, role, significance of Classical of Music was always not that easy to prepare. However, I am almost everyday faced with challenges, so, whenever difficult posts were well and decently addressed, it was always a joy for me to answer them, even if it was not an "easy" task.
As for the "validity of your summary", let's say that we may recognise each other's validity of the different aspects of our views expressed, since with our virtual identities in this forum, the truth about ourselves is so elusive and any judgement might easily be unfair and wrong. However, we can both trace certain quite good or positive elements on both sides (e.g. passion and committment for Classical Music from my side, rational and wisdom from yours). So, the "olive branch" (I can accept the term as a poetic expression for my post intent) apparently is accepted with the same good intention and sincerity it was offered.
I guess, when we are "sober", we may enjoy any discourse, since I never claim the "infallible" (even if my passion may project that) and my only "absolute" truth is about the essence, role and significance of Classical Music, which I think I have defended, in various threads, in any possible way. So, let's concentrate on Classical Music. Atonal, in a very recent exchange we had, put it straight: "we all know the Truth, Parla". So, let i be...that way.
As for the "notorious" clip, I will see it with any "open mind" possible, but you should not forget where I stand. As for how the "great man himself" would have taken it, let's not be so sure. Probably, he might have suffered apoplexy the first seconds he would have "landed" on our contemporary world!
Finally, many thanks for your good wishes for a very long and difficult trip back to my...basis. Best wishes to you, as well.
Speaking of Bax, try, if not yet, the wonderful Oboe Quintet. The one and quite good version I still remember is the one on BIS, along with the Oboe Quintet of Bliss and The Phantasy Quartet of Britten.
I hope nobody's offended by this diversion into Bax's chamber works, but while we're on the subject ..................
You boys have got me with this reference to the Clarinet Sonatas, plural. I thought there was only one, written in 1934. It's available on a Hyperion disc featuring the Nash Ensemble and also includes the Oboe Quintet. Hearing it again during me recent troll through Bax, unfortunately I found the playing rather reticent, bordering on dull. The Harp Quintet is certainly a dud on this cd. However it's worth hearing at least for the Nonet, a superb work contemporary with the 3rd Symphony and redolent of it.
The string quartets are intriguing, very dissimilar, each a world of its own. Both Violin Sonatas are well worth investigating, the second in that no-holds-barred romantic vein in which Bax recalls one or all of his girlfriends and communicates from and to the heart. It's a pity the Chandos disc of both works mikes the violin very poorly, presenting the high midrange like a laser.
Thanks again Parla for yet another recommendation. The oboe is my favourite instrument (at the moment ...ha ha ).
I have Robert Plane playing on Naxos, I'm no expert but sounds fine to me.
Atonal is right. The world premier of the second Clarinet Sonata of Bax is on this particular CD of Naxos. Recording and performances are quite competitive.
To close the subject of Chamber Music of Bax, Tagalie kindly note that there is a marvellous CD on Naxos with the Piano Quintet of Bax (in g minor) along with The Piano Quintet of Bridge (in d minor): two superb works in this very cumbersome genre, which requires the utmost balance between strings and the piano, while it lends itself to some very symphonic dimensions for Chamber Music.
Finally, Dutton has issued recently the very first edited version of Bax's String Quintet.
I hope we're done with Bax. (Thanks for the hospitality, Vic).