Formative Musical Experiences
Thu, Oct 4 2012, 9:01AM
I’m sure each of us knows of recordings which introduced us to great music and which have (sometimes justifiably, sometimes less so) remained the touchstones for those works, impossible to displace, glued into the subconscious. Perhaps some members might like to share their experiences.
For me, some come from trying to recapture something heard in live performance, others are works introduced through recordings.
Here are some of them:
Schubert’s ninth symphony with Krips and the LSO. (Furtwangler’s arguable greater performance has never been able to displace this first acquaintance).
Beethoven violin concerto with Heifetz (Boston SO/Munch). Still the supreme performance, and, pace Eliza, very well recorded.
Bach St. Matthew Passion: Karl Richter’s first recording, which also introduced me to Irmgard Seefried and Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau. May sound a bit old-fashioned now, but still a favourite.
Beethoven piano sonatas with Wilhelm Kempff. One of my first LPs was the perennial coupling of 8,14 and 23.
Mozart’s Figaro with Kleiber and the Vienna Staatsoper. Still regarded as one of the greatest.
Finally, Lipatti playing Bach, remembered from my grandfather’s 78s.
As an ‘oldie’ inevitably my choices are older recordings. This doesn’t bother me much, though I notice that recordings much older than those of my ‘formative’ years more easily fall below my tolerance level. I still remember from my younger years then-oldies trying to convince me of the superiority of Schnabel over Kempff, Melchior over Windgassen, Schorr over Hotter, Pinza over Siepi etc., but I couldn’t take the ‘old’ recordings.
Younger forum members have the great advantage of formative years during the more modern recording era.
Any suggestions!
Chris
Thu, Oct 4 2012, 3:17PM
#2
RE: Formative Musical Experiences
When I was still in school I would listen to a well-worn LP from the local library of Szell conducting Smetana`s The Moldau and his dances from the Bartered Bride,as well as Dvorak`s Carnival Overture and several of his Slavonic Dances.Those performances have followed me all the way through sonic facelifts to 2 Sony SACDs that contain all those works plus Dvorak`s Symphony 7 and all the rest of the Slavonic Dances.Would recommend Reiner`s classic RCA Bartok disc that includes the Concerto For Orchestra.There are no shortage of great works and recordings of those great works.Of the recordings already listed,I particularly love Solti`s(Culshaw) Ring cycle as well as Krip`s Schubert(I admire his performance of the 8th with the VPO almost as much as the 9th).Outstanding Decca sonics in the Wagner as well as the Schubert.
Fri, Oct 5 2012, 4:31AM
#3
RE: Formative Musical Experiences
Would recommend Reiner`s classic RCA Bartok disc that includes the Concerto For Orchestra.
Amen to that. Nobody would claim perfection for the performance - apart from anything else my vinyl copy has an annoying swish through the first two movements - but it's one of those records that has that indefinable special something.
Fri, Oct 5 2012, 7:16AM
#4
RE: Formative Musical Experiences
When I was at school (more than fifty years ago) our excellent music teacher taught us to sing some of the Songs of Travel of Vaughan Williams, as well as The Water Mill and Linden Lea. Thus was born a great and abiding love, not only of Vaughan Williams, but of English song in general. On leaving school I bought John Shirley-Quirk's recording of the Songs of Travel on a Saga LP (12 shillings and sixpence) and I still have it, as well as several other recordings of these lovely songs.
Fri, Oct 5 2012, 8:53AM
#5
RE: Formative Musical Experiences
Like first 'love' no matter what beauty comes along, can't be replicated,I am definitely talking in a historical sense here,as I am also an 'oldie'.
I have two that never have been knocked off their perch -
Mozart Piano Concerto no.20. Rudolph Serkin with George Szell conducting Columbia SO.
Franck Violin Sonata. Arthur Grumiaux violin and Istvan Hajdu piano.
Fri, Oct 5 2012, 3:26PM
#6
RE: Formative Musical Experiences
Fascinating choices you all have made. Most of them have been favourites of mine too. I like your analogy with 'first love' History Man! And for a long time I've loved that Mozart piano concerto CD (and the LP before it) of 19 & 20 with Serkin and Szell.
It took me a while before I started to appreciate Bartok, but that Reiner recording of the Concerto for Orchestra is fabulous, both as a performance and a recording! The newest CD transfer reallty does sound splendid. There doesn't seem to be any sign of decay with RCA's master tapes.
Parla, I'm not sure that I can say yet that I'm still hearing 'formative' performances. It would be nice to think so. Parkanyi's in Haydn are an obvious candidate!Time will tell. And I too loved Bohm's Also sprach Zarathustra (was it the Vienna Phil or the Berlin?)
I should have mentioned Wagner in my own formative choices. Again though I wasn't ready for Wagner when the Decca/Solti Ring started with Rheingold in 1959. Having read the 'stories' (in Ernest Newman) I rather liked the sound of Parsifal. My father told me it was a difficult and problematic work and I should try something else! Being a rebellious teenager that had the immediate effect of sending me to the library where I borrowed the (only) recording of Parsifal - with Knappertsbusch at the 1951 Bayreuth Festival. What a fortunate introduction, famously described by Ernest Newman as "one of the most moving spiritual experiences of my life". That was the beginning of my 'love-affair' with Wagner, and with Knappertsbusch, which may explain why I don't find Solti's Wagner so satisfying as many others do - I'm still hooked on Knappersbusch to this day.
Good to see you back Tagalie! Is it coincidence that the football season is now well underway?!
Chris
Sun, Oct 7 2012, 7:27AM
#7
RE: Formative Musical Experiences
... I still remember from my younger years then-oldies trying to convince me of the superiority of Schnabel over Kempff, Melchior over Windgassen, Schorr over Hotter, Pinza over Siepi etc., but I couldn’t take the ‘old’ recordings.
Prompted by your post, Chris, I spent an hour or so this morning comparing and contrasting the singers you mention above. Leaving aside the sterile question of 'singer a is much better than singer b' (and knowing my own prejudices regarding these names, whose recordings I've been familiar with for many years) I listened more with an ear for the quality of recorded sound, and in particular whether the older recordings might, as you say, discourage a newer listener from further exploration into recorded vocal history.
Admittedly, as a long-time devotee of historical vocal recordings, my tolerance levels regarding the more ancient discs might be higher than most, but I think that we are so very well served by some splendid transfers of historical vocal material these days that I'm not sure that the difference is so stark as it may have been in the past.
For example, I've always thought that Pinza's acoustic recordings have never really had great transfers - though I most certainly wouldn't want to be without them in my collection - but his electrical recordings uniformly present such a vivid vocal presence that I can't imagine anyone being put off purely on the grounds of sound quality.
Sun, Oct 7 2012, 8:33AM
#8
RE: Formative Musical Experiences
Interesting JKH. That's one of the nice things about this forum, the way we are prompted to listen again to items not played for some time. I, in turn, prompted by your reply, listened last night to the pre-war Walkure Act 1, with Bruno Walter, Lehmann and Melchior. I think I'm probably more tolerant of older recordings now than I used to be in those 'formative' years. But I'm still somewhat stuck with those 'formative' memories of the Wagner singers of the 50s. I do think it was a great era for Wagner singers (and conductors too). What is very noticeable is the different style of voice production of those great pre-war singers. It's very obvious too in the Lieder singing of the time compared with the post war era.
The 1936 Walkure is not badly recorded but I find it almost impossible to listen right through to, say, the 1936 Covent garden Tristan, or the Metropolitan Opera Wagner recordings with Schorr. Can you cope with these JKH? Listening to individual arias or scenes in old recordings gives a good idea of the voices and singing style of these great singers, enough to hear what one is missing.
I have the 1942 Don Giovanni with Pinza (Walter conducting at the Met). Again the sound is good enough to get an idea of what Pinza sounded like (I still prefer Siepi!) but is it only me or is there is something less pleasant about recordings made on acetates, compared with conventional 78s? And I do think that 33lp was right in saying that the biggest movement towards real quality came with recording on tape. The 1944 Meistersinger with Bohm ((Schoffler as Sachs) really sounds quite acceptable to me. I can listen to a whole act at a sitting without any problem.
Anyway thanks to your post I will try again with some of these older singers and retest my tolerance levels!
Chris
PS: I don't have the most recent Naxos transfer of the Walkure. Is it better than EMI's previous transfer?
Sun, Oct 7 2012, 6:30PM
#9
RE: Formative Musical Experiences
Beethoven violin concerto with Heifetz (Boston SO/Munch). Still the supreme performance
I have to demur here! Herman Krebbers and the Concertebouw under Haitink on Philips is for me without question the supreme performance of this work and has never been equalled. I first heard the violin concerto on Radio 3 as a student and had to just stop what I was doing and listen until the final note. The experience was a kind of revelation that I don't expect to repeat, unfortunately I have no idea who it was playing, which makes it unhelpful as a contribution to this thread. However anyone who loves the work and doesn't know the Krebbers recording (awarded one of the old Penguin Guide's rare rosettes) owes it to themselves to listen to it.
Sun, Oct 7 2012, 8:38PM
#10
RE: Formative Musical Experiences
The thread is about formative experiences, not performance X is better than performance Y.
For me:
Ormandy conducting the Polka and Fugue from Schwanda the Bagpiper on 78
Serkin and Ormandy doing the Emperor concerto.
Toscanini doing Beethovens 2nd, 4th, 6th and 7th symphonies.
Kempff playing Beethoven's 3rd piano concerto.
Boult's '50s Marble Arch Planets
lots of others.....
P
Sun, Oct 7 2012, 10:53PM
#11
RE: Formative Musical Experiences
Chris, having sampled the Naxos Walkure on Spotify Premium, my view is that it is certainly a very good transfer, but if you have it on of the Keith Hardwick EMI transfers, then there's no need to rush out and replace it.
The 50s was, as you say, an astonishing decade for Wagner singing (though of course, contemporary critics still ploughed the sterile furrow of comparison with a previous Golden Age). What I still find hard to believe is that there is now such a vast trove of wonderful performances being discovered and issued. We could hardly have dreamed this would be the case even 20 years ago.
I know what you mean about some of the more intractable acetate transfers and they do take some dedicaton and perseverance I suppose. Some of the Covent Garden and Met recordings from the 30s fall into this category, but then a gem turns up such as the 1934 Pagliacci with Martinelli and Tibbett - I'd put up with a lot of sub hi-fi acetate for that.
The point you make about changing vocal styles is one that's fascinated me for many years. The pre/post-war split is a convenient comparison point, but looking at different vocal styles between, say, singers whose careers had been mainly before the recording era and those who came later, or pre/post verismo Italian singing, pre/post electrical recordings are all equally fascinating and instructive. I think there's an increasing homogeneity in modern singing, the result of numerous different influences and changing tastes. In general, I think lieder singing pre-war was 'straighter' than the more 'interventionist' approach that came later as typified by Fischer-Dieskau, for example. It's obviously a matter of taste, but I prefer the former approach in general.
The Pinza Don Giovanni has been a favourite of mine for many years. Naturally one wouldn't listen to a recording like this for orchestral refulgence nor a musicologically sound approach - but what a cast! Try the live 1937 recording from Salzburg. The voices are very well captured. (You can be temporariy excused for preferring Siepi to Pinza - even Homer nodded, as they say).
In essence, I suppose that if I want to sit down to a whole performance, or an act, I would normally opt for a modern recording, but there are unmissable exceptions.
Sun, Oct 7 2012, 10:54PM
#12
RE: Formative Musical Experiences
I really started to listen to classical about 20 years ago, after a formation in free jazz. That coincided with the new phase in Pierre Boulez' recording career, with DG. I followed Boulez' recordings and his many London concerts. I have never had the recorded version of a work imprinted because I have never separated recording from concert performances and have always tried to think through to the work and regard any recording or performance as a realisation.
I heard many works in performance before I heard any recording - if indeed I *ever* heard a recording - I have heard many London premieres of works by Boulez, Birtwistle, Tippett, Henze, Eotvos (etc etc) before any recording was made, or often in performances that were recorded at the time or in a related studio session. I'd add as well that coming through in the age when recordings became gradually cheaper, it was always likely I would acquire different versions of works that I became interested in where these existed.
The result is that I have very few works imprinted by recordings, with only a few exceptions, the earliest being perhaps one or two concerto recordings by Mutter, and the most recent being Mark Wigglesworth's Shostakovich 8, a work I first heard in concert long before I bought any recording, and which I had heard in several recorded versions before I became glued to Mark's version which I only purchased a few months ago.
For me it has been the path taken that has been more important than any recording - I had passed my phase of adherence to the actually realised performance in my earlier years of free jazz record collecting and came at classical with a different approach. For this reason I am very resistant to the CD review culture of 'best recording' and, since I have always followed living musicians and current projects, I've never felt inclined to go back. In any case, the repertoire I love has always included Ligeti, Boulez, Birtwistle (less now, maybe, but he came back for me with Night's Black Bird) and a number of pieces I regard as indestructible repertoire of the last sixty years - such as Ligeti's violin concerto which I have heard performed by three different violinists and has been played and recorded by several others. These works did not even exist in the era of supposedly classic recordings, but more importantly the way of thinking which they both brought about and reflected - and which I share - had not properly come into existence or effect in those earlier decades, with an effect on earlier recordings I somehow feel.
So classical repertoire is defined for me in this way and not by what was available decades ago. That said, I have to admit that recent years in London hearing Gergiev conduct pieces I associate with that orchestra and Boulez has been a challenge so maybe I am more conservative than I think...
Tue, Oct 9 2012, 3:43PM
#13
RE: Formative Musical Experiences
Thank you all for so many interesting comments. Fascinating how much common ground has appeared.
Phlogiston, interesting how Kempff keeps coming up in every thread. And, my goodness, it's years since I heard the Polka and Fugue from Schwanda the Bagpiper; it used to be played so often, now its seems to be a rarity! Ormandy too used to be everywhere but has fallen out of favour lately, something not likely to happen to Toscanini's Beethoven I suspect. (On a subject raised in another thread, Ormandy was the first to record Deryck Cooke's completion of Mahler's 10th).
JKH, thanks for your helpful and typically thorough post. Some of the fascinatingdiscussion points it raises are beginning to get rather 'off-topic' I suppose (but never mind), but we can take up the subject of styles of Lieder singing again in that thread, if you (or others) would be interested. Prompted by the 'Demise of EMI' thread, I've just ordered the 17CD set of 'Schubert on Record'. I have quite a lot of it already but at £34 for 17 CDs it is still an essential purchase (And Adrian3, it has all the texts on a CD - will I be able to read them?). Wagner singing on record too would surely lead to some interesting discussion.
Dmitri, your formative experience as far as modern music is concerned is very similar to mine. I have rarely got to understand, still less to love, modern works from a recording. First I need to hear the music 'in the flesh'. As with you, Boulez has very much been to the fore, from his BBC concerts in the 60s to recent recordings of his own music. Although the balance was, as has been widely noted, rather one sided, the concerts promoted by the BBC (And also the London Sinfonietta) masterminded by William Glock and then Robert Ponsonby opened the doors to me for much allegedly 'difficult' music. For me it all started with those 1960s (Boulez) performances of 'The Rite of Spring'.
I will be away for a few days, but will be thinking about Lieder on record and Wagner singing on record in the meantime.
Best wishes to all!
Chris
Tue, Oct 9 2012, 8:44PM
#14
RE: Formative Musical Experiences
Ormandy was, in his heyday, one of the highly regarded conductors. Concertgoers in Philadelphia must have had some rich experiences. i guess that, particularly in the States he must have been a big part of many record collections. Somehow he seems to have become unfashionable.
Wed, Oct 10 2012, 11:23AM
#15
RE: Formative Musical Experiences
Ormandy was, in his heyday, one of the highly regarded conductors. Concertgoers in Philadelphia must have had some rich experiences. i guess that, particularly in the States he must have been a big part of many record collections. Somehow he seems to have become unfashionable.
Hi Phlogiston! :-)
He was in mine (referring to collections)!
Best wishes,
Petra
Coming later to Classical Music, my first formative musical experience was R. Srtrauss' Also sprach Zarathustra with VPO under K. Bohm (on DG).
However, the greatest of all came a bit after with Solt's Ring, in the magnificent and unsurpassed LP version. More Operas from the then Decca catalogue had enormous impact on me, at that time, like the first I Puritani and Lucia with Sutherland.
However, what is amazing is the fact I still feel my musical experiences play a "formative" role in comprehending some great or revelatory works of the repertory, particularly in Chamber Music.
Parla