Forthcoming Releases
Mon, Jul 2 2012, 11:40AM
#2
RE: Forthcoming Releases
O.K., Petra. I guess we may understand each other better now. To make myself clearer, I would be the happiest of men to find out that the "great" names are well recorded or super remastered, so that we may be closer to their real playing and sound. For the time being, the situation is not always to their favour, particularly, if we go backwards in time.
I don't definitely enjoy and, very rarely, I listen to "historical" recordings (depending on when "history" starts). However, some mono recordings have been brilliantly remastered. So, it depends always. I listen and purchase on a case by case basis.
Happy listening too!
Parla
P.S.: One thing I truly appreciate, Petra, in your approaching Classical Music is your genuine and unashamed love, however expressed always with moderation, for this Art. Keep trying. You will never fail in identifying the truth in the great works and memorable performances.
Thu, Jul 5 2012, 5:28PM
#3
RE: Forthcoming Releases
Hi Petra!
My copy of the Dvorak 9 with Ancerl is a slightly earlier one (2010) than the 'Gold Edition' one (2011). Mine is coupled with Vltava (Smetana) and has a picture of the Charles Bridge in Prague. The later 'Gold' one has tghe same coupling as the much earlier issue, so it might be the same mastering as that. I'm afraid I just don't know. and I don't have the earlier CD version, but I was comparing mine with the LP. It's a lovely performance though.
What do you have of the 'Talich Special Edition', and more particularly, how are the transfers?
Chris
PS: You can see a picture of the old Ancerl CD on Amazon.
Hello Chris!
I only have two of the Talich Special Edition CDs. The ones that I have are:
Vol. 4 (Mozart Sinfonia Concertante in E flat K 297b and Sym. No. 39 in E flat major, K543). They were recorded in 1949 and 1955 respectively. Rather murky sound from what I recall. I've never heard the LPs I'm afraid so it's hard to comment on the transfers.
...and Vol. 2 which I still need to listen to! (It has Smetana's "Czech Song", Suk's "Fairy Tale", and Novak's "Slovacko Suite". I'll try and listen to this one soon and report back to you, but again, I don't have any Supraphon LPs (period) so a comparison is impossible, but I'll happily share my impressions of the overall sound if you like?
Thanks for your description of the CD cover too!
Best wishes,
Petra
Thu, Jul 5 2012, 5:47PM
#4
RE: Forthcoming Releases
O.K., Petra. I guess we may understand each other better now. To make myself clearer, I would be the happiest of men to find out that the "great" names are well recorded or super remastered, so that we may be closer to their real playing and sound. For the time being, the situation is not always to their favour, particularly, if we go backwards in time.
I don't definitely enjoy and, very rarely, I listen to "historical" recordings (depending on when "history" starts). However, some mono recordings have been brilliantly remastered. So, it depends always. I listen and purchase on a case by case basis.
Happy listening too!
Parla
P.S.: One thing I truly appreciate, Petra, in your approaching Classical Music is your genuine and unashamed love, however expressed always with moderation, for this Art. Keep trying. You will never fail in identifying the truth in the great works and memorable performances.
Thanks Parla for your kind words. And yes, I'm happily enjoying the voyage and have no plans to abort it! LOL ;-) Though the explorations are getting a bit waylayed at the moment (Wimbledon).
Perhaps "historical" was the wrong word to use? Though I did say something like "historical/older recordings". I have had fun (and sometimes find very moving) listening to things like Vaughan Williams conducting some of his own symphonies, some of Naxos's Cortot recordings...oh, what else for example? I have a bunch of Nimbus's and Pearl's recordings of some of their very early recordings of various opera singers from the early 20th century which I visit on occasion. I also enjoy things like EMI's Icon series which often contains some recordings from the early years of recorded sound. In a perfect world, it would be nice to have say the original 78's in excellent condition, a decent Victrola, and a wonderful needle in order to be able to listen to them at their best, but alas, I don't own those!
I also love complete operas with singers like Maria Callas even though the recorded sound (to me anyway) oftentimes feels "boxed in" (wish that I could have heard her live!).
So, do you have any favourites of "older" recordings Parla?
Best wishes,
Petra
Sun, Jul 8 2012, 12:40AM
#5
RE: Forthcoming Releases
Sorry for my procrastination, Petra, but I overlook this post and the question you address to me.
No, I don't have particular favourites of "older" recordings. The basic element is the best possible sound. Then, I start considering the performance, etc. So, let's say Wagner's Ring with Solti is a rather "old" stuff, but what a production! For quite a few analysts, this is the recording of all times. No wonder the Japanese label Esoterique made an amazingly impressive transfer to SACD, in a very luxurious box, in about 1000 copies only. They were sold out rapidly at prices up to $800! I was not that fast, being reluctant to go ahead...
By the way, Praga is going to release, soon, a SACD with some "old" recordings of the three quite important concertos by Shostakovich, initially released (in the early 60s) by the American Columbia, on LPs: The Violin Concerto no. 1 with Oistrach, the Cello Concerto no 1 with Rostropovich (under Ormandy) and the Piano Concerto no.2 with Bernstein (playing and conducting the NYPO). As Praga claims, with this SACD transfer, these glorious performances "are immortalised"!
Parla
Sun, Jul 8 2012, 2:48AM
#6
RE: Forthcoming Releases
Parla wrote:
I have done a "blind" test of my favourite and most glorious Violin Sonata in A major by Franck. I asked various friends, violinists and pianists, to listen, without knowing who are performing, to 10 different recordings, with huge names and less well-known ones. The final verdict was almost unanimously in favour of a completely marginal recording of an american obscure label, called ProPiano, with two completely unknown female Japanese soloists, namely Yukiko Kamei (Violin) and Chitose Okashiro (Piano).
Franck's violin sonata is one my favourites from this genre too, Parla. I don't know about your comparative listening, but most performers tend to be too romantic and sweet when reading this work (the celebrated Chung & Lupu's recording comes to mind). Kremer & Maisenberg's recording on Praga takes a slightly different approach. Crude, sharp and intense: my reference up to now. And btw, in great stereo sound!
Sun, Jul 8 2012, 4:31AM
#7
RE: Forthcoming Releases
I am another fan of Moravec's art. His Chopin recordings are outstanding - the music breathes wonderfully w/ intimacy and sensitivity: what a control! - and his Mozart, Franck, Ravel is very good too. I thought I wouldn't enjoy Schumann's PC any longer (and Grieg's for that matter) until I bumped into his recording on Supraphon: I am back w/ this romantic piece.
When it comes to recordings, to me, is performance first, performance second and sq, a third factor. I would easily discard all my recordings from 40s, 50s and 60s if I had something in demonstrative sound to replace them w/ the same level of performance.
I have many recordings of LvB's late piano sonatas for example (Arrau, Gilels, Kempff's 2nd cycle, Brendel's 1st and 2nd cycle on Philips,.....) : both old and recent ones, but one of my favourites, if not the favourite, is Solomon's on EMI in mono sound from early 50's. Yes I do admire the others particularly Arrau's and I just ordered Kempff's first cycle on DG - again from the 50s if I mistake not - to see if I can find another great recording of those masterpieces.
No I won't give up on Ancerl's recordings of Stravinsky's ballets, Fricsay's recordings of Mozart's masses and operas and above all his LvB's 9th ............ just to make my hi-fi gear show all of its potential. Yes its great when you can associate great performance w/ great sound (Reiner's recordings w/ CSO in RCA Living Stereo series for instance).
I was a hi-fi enthusiast in the past and tried hard to get a true to life sound reproduction. I looked for transparency, realism, perfect timbre, 3d sound in a proportional soundstage. In short: I tried to meet and all those parameters hi-fi lovers like to emphasize. All in vain or w/ poor results.
As I reached a "better sq", my rig started telling me what to listen and what not to listen. That always meant to stick with a few demonstrative cds to the detriment of my recordings of the past that sounded awful: thin sound w/ pierceful, almost unbearable highs and so on. Even new cds had some problems mainly in the treble department: a peculiar problem w/ cm recordings.
To make a long story short: I concluded that hi-fi for a cm lover is above all compromise: you must sacrifice something to really enjoy your collection as a whole and mainly to be able to appreciate the artists of the past. So I really thought that transparent speakers was the way to go (Proac, Martin-Logan....) just to conclude that better results can be obtained from bbc-style speakers like Spendor SP100 or Harbeth Monitor 40 that are not so great in this aspect but are far more musical and suitable to classical music.
So it's always good to check if your recordings preference is not being dictated by your hi-fi equipment or your taste for demonstrative sound.
Having said that I must admit that there are those who can enjoy all recordings provided they are from first-rate artists and in that scenario naturally will prefer those modern, exemplary recordings and I respect that.
But for me, only from first-rate artists on happy days, that, unfortunately, are scarce.
Sun, Jul 8 2012, 2:03PM
#8
RE: Forthcoming Releases
Thanks a lot, 78RPM, for the last two posts (the last one very thorough, I have to admit).
I have almost every well recorded version of Franck's Violin Sonata. I love quite a few of them for different reasons (Chung and Lupu suffer from a not so bright and deep in ambience recording. However, it's a great performance of two superb soloists). Kremer/Meisenberg is a sort of "reference" recording but, still, the sound and the power of the two instruments are not that well projected. The ProPiano recording of these almost completely unknown artists (although Okashiro has quite a few recordings for ProPiano itself and few more for some also marginal labels) make full justice of how this Sonata may sound.
From your second post, I can't comment on anything but your last three paragraphs:
Yes, for some people, the hi-fi or their taste for demonstrative sound may dicate their recording preferences. However, for someone who has some...very vast collection of CDs & SACDs, it's difficult to say that.
As for "those who can enjoy all recordings provided they are from first-rate artists...", I can assure you, particularly the last few decades, there are plenty of "demonstrative sound" (and not only) recordings of artists, which can hardly be called or even suspected as first-rate (at least, at first glance or listening), but they "sound" impressively well in performing the most demanding works of every genre (the above example of the Frank' Violin Sonata is just one). For me, the two SACDs of Haydn's Symphonies with van Zweden and his Dutch forces, on Exton, are above anything else I have on this subject (and I have a lot). Nowadays, Van Zweden might be considered as a kind of "first-rate" conductor, but at the time of the recording, I doubt.
However, I'm with you on the "first-rate artists on happy days", but when they sound as good as it gets (to put it nicely).
Parla
Sun, Jul 8 2012, 7:13PM
#9
RE: Forthcoming Releases
By the way, Praga is going to release, soon, a SACD with some "old" recordings of the three quite important concertos by Shostakovich, initially released (in the early 60s) by the American Columbia, on LPs: The Violin Concerto no. 1 with Oistrach, the Cello Concerto no 1 with Rostropovich (under Ormandy) and the Piano Concerto no.2 with Bernstein (playing and conducting the NYPO). As Praga claims, with this SACD transfer, these glorious performances "are immortalised"!
Parla
From what sources will Praga make these reissues? I find it unlikely CBS/Sony will give Praga access to the mastertapes so as the recordings are presumably out of copyright they will be making copies from LPs so how can the SACDs be better than the originals? CBS were not exactly noted for the quality of their recordings producing in my opinion some of the worst and in some cases crudest sounding recordings of the major (and many lesser) companies.
As for Franck's violin sonata the BBC MM CD performance from Ibraginova & Tiberghien was first class but not quite in the league of the VARA radio studio performance (well recorded) by Johanna Martzy (although her pianist is no match for Tiberghien). Do you have these?
Sun, Jul 8 2012, 8:19PM
#10
RE: Forthcoming Releases
I am another fan of Moravec's art. His Chopin recordings are outstanding - the music breathes wonderfully w/ intimacy and sensitivity: what a control! - and his Mozart, Franck, Ravel is very good too. I thought I wouldn't enjoy Schumann's PC any longer (and Grieg's for that matter) until I bumped into his recording on Supraphon: I am back w/ this romantic piece.
When it comes to recordings, to me, is performance first, performance second and sq, a third factor. I would easily discard all my recordings from 40s, 50s and 60s if I had something in demonstrative sound to replace them w/ the same level of performance.
I have many recordings of LvB's late piano sonatas for example (Arrau, Gilels, Kempff's 2nd cycle, Brendel's 1st and 2nd cycle on Philips,.....) : both old and recent ones, but one of my favourites, if not the favourite, is Solomon's on EMI in mono sound from early 50's. Yes I do admire the others particularly Arrau's and I just ordered Kempff's first cycle on DG - again from the 50s if I mistake not - to see if I can find another great recording of those masterpieces.
No I won't give up on Ancerl's recordings of Stravinsky's ballets, Fricsay's recordings of Mozart's masses and operas and above all his LvB's 9th ............ just to make my hi-fi gear show all of its potential. Yes its great when you can associate great performance w/ great sound (Reiner's recordings w/ CSO in RCA Living Stereo series for instance).
I was a hi-fi enthusiast in the past and tried hard to get a true to life sound reproduction. I looked for transparency, realism, perfect timbre, 3d sound in a proportional soundstage. In short: I tried to meet and all those parameters hi-fi lovers like to emphasize. All in vain or w/ poor results.
As I reached a "better sq", my rig started telling me what to listen and what not to listen. That always meant to stick with a few demonstrative cds to the detriment of my recordings of the past that sounded awful: thin sound w/ pierceful, almost unbearable highs and so on. Even new cds had some problems mainly in the treble department: a peculiar problem w/ cm recordings.
To make a long story short: I concluded that hi-fi for a cm lover is above all compromise: you must sacrifice something to really enjoy your collection as a whole and mainly to be able to appreciate the artists of the past. So I really thought that transparent speakers was the way to go (Proac, Martin-Logan....) just to conclude that better results can be obtained from bbc-style speakers like Spendor SP100 or Harbeth Monitor 40 that are not so great in this aspect but are far more musical and suitable to classical music.
So it's always good to check if your recordings preference is not being dictated by your hi-fi equipment or your taste for demonstrative sound.
Having said that I must admit that there are those who can enjoy all recordings provided they are from first-rate artists and in that scenario naturally will prefer those modern, exemplary recordings and I respect that.
But for me, only from first-rate artists on happy days, that, unfortunately, are scarce.
Hi 78! Happy to hear from another Moravec fan! :-) I think perhaps that when you said that you had Kempff's second cycle that you were possibly unaware that Kempff had recorded Beethoven's piano sonatas three times (the first not complete). I don't own, but believe that the first recordings were from the mid-1920's through the mid-1940-s (if Wiki is correct!). The second set (complete) is from the 1950's and on DG (and is the one that you recently ordered and also the one that I have and is also in mono). The third set (complete I believe) is also with DG and is in stereo and is from the 1960's. Or maybe you just meant "complete sets"?
And, I think that we're very close to being in agreement as to the importance of the performance first and foremost; however, even if I could find a performance of equal quality, I wouldn't get rid of my older recordings as I think that there are many performances that are too special and moving to get rid of even though there are also ones in better sound that are terrific and moving too! I believe that there's room for both on ones CD shelves (though oftentimes with a lot of rearranging and requiring a lot of creativity! LOL).
Parla,
I know that you love your Praga CDs (and perhaps recall that I've been buying more of them lately too?) and was wondering if you have and have heard a particular one. It's of Dohnanyi with the likes of Starker and Susskind and include the composer playing his own piano concerto and (particularly) interesting for me of Starker playing his "Konzertstück". I've seen negative reviews of their remastering of these works. I'd be inteterested in any comments from you (and from others).
Best wishes,
Petra
Sun, Jul 8 2012, 11:05PM
#11
RE: Forthcoming Releases
33lpm, from what Praga mentions in its website, it seems that all these reissues (they are quite a few) come from the defunct French label Le Chant du Monde. Apparently, LCDM had the copyright of all these "old" (or historical) recordings for Europe (or for the francophone countries), at a particular time in 60s or 70s. I have only two of the Richter ones and they sound as good as one could expect for a hi-end equipment. Not perfect, of course, but good listening, after all.
The two Richtrer recordings are dealing with the pianist's Rachmaninov Piano Concertos 1 & 2 with Kurt Sanderling (along with 4 Preludes) and the other one with Grieg's Piano Concerto (with Moscow State S.O. under Kondrashin) and Dvorak's Piano Concerto (with Prague S.O. under Smetacek). Better than good, anyway.
Petra, I don't have most of the "historical" recordings of Praga, since I'm afraid they still may not sound as I wish for my equipment. So, I cannot tell anything about this Dohnanyi CD you mentioned. I'm very excited and very satisfied for their original recordings, not their transfers, which, in any case, may suffer from their original sources. I can recommend very highly all the other SACDs on Dohnanyi's Chamber Music though. They are gems, in many ways.
Best wishes, as ever,
Parla
Sun, Jul 8 2012, 11:59PM
#12
RE: Forthcoming Releases
Perhaps "historical" was the wrong word to use? Though I did say something like "historical/older recordings".....I have a bunch of Nimbus's and Pearl's recordings of some of their very early recordings of various opera singers from the early 20th century which I visit on occasion. I also enjoy things like EMI's Icon series which often contains some recordings from the early years of recorded sound. In a perfect world, it would be nice to have say the original 78's in excellent condition, a decent Victrola, and a wonderful needle in order to be able to listen to them at their best, but alas, I don't own those!
It's good to see historical recordings of singers getting a mention, Petra, since they so very rarely get discussed on the forum. It's my main area of interest and am always keen to hear others' thoughts and impressions. I suppose any lover of historical singing necessarily must have a higher tolerance level of poor recording quality, and there are some in my collection which certainly test the limits of that tolerance. However, this recorded legacy is utterly priceless and its so good to see that, generally speaking, modern transfers have become so very much better than they once were.
I recall very well the launch of the Nimbus collection, the most astonishing feature of which has been the consistently superb quality of the originals they use. The recording technique they used to employ - now abandoned in favour of more 'straight' transfers - gave sometimes variable results, but the originals have always been consistently superb.
Are there any singers on the Pearl and Nimbus sets (or any others) that you are particularly taken with?
And you're right - an original, played on a suitable gramophone can produce stunning results, at least as far as vocal music is concerned. Some 30+ years ago, I was played an original Tamagno on a large HMV horn model. I can close my eyes and still recall the sound to this day.
Mon, Jul 9 2012, 8:18AM
#13
RE: Forthcoming Releases
Can someone give me a reason why RCA/Sony is not releasing the Moffo/Bacquier/ Carreras , Thais on CD?
Mon, Jul 9 2012, 10:26PM
#14
RE: Forthcoming Releases
I recall very well the launch of the Nimbus collection, the most astonishing feature of which has been the consistently superb quality of the originals they use. The recording technique they used to employ - now abandoned in favour of more 'straight' transfers - gave sometimes variable results, but the originals have always been consistently superb.
Are there any singers on the Pearl and Nimbus sets (or any others) that you are particularly taken with?
And you're right - an original, played on a suitable gramophone can produce stunning results, at least as far as vocal music is concerned. Some 30+ years ago, I was played an original Tamagno on a large HMV horn model. I can close my eyes and still recall the sound to this day.
Hi JKH!
A couple of ones (for starters) are the Nimbus ones of Rosa Ponselle (I have vols. 1 and 2...I believe that there is a third one too?). I became interested in hearing her singing when I found out that she was Maria Callas's favorite singer and loved listening to her recordings and broadcasts when she was a young girl. Another favorite one is of Ljuba Welitsch whose recordings I first heard on an EMI Karajan CD which also included singers like Maria Cebotari and the Konetzni sisters (what a great CD!)
You probably know this CD, it's this one:
http://www.amazon.com/Karajan-Mozart-R-Strauss-Smetana/dp/B000002ST3/ref...
And you JKH? :-)
Best wishes,
Petra
p.s. Do you know the book by Robet Tuggle (The Golden Age of Opera)?
Tue, Jul 10 2012, 12:00AM
#15
RE: Forthcoming Releases
33lpm, from what Praga mentions in its website, it seems that all these reissues (they are quite a few) come from the defunct French label Le Chant du Monde. Apparently, LCDM had the copyright of all these "old" (or historical) recordings for Europe (or for the francophone countries), at a particular time in 60s or 70s. I have only two of the Richter ones and they sound as good as one could expect for a hi-end equipment. Not perfect, of course, but good listening, after all.
The two Richtrer recordings are dealing with the pianist's Rachmaninov Piano Concertos 1 & 2 with Kurt Sanderling (along with 4 Preludes) and the other one with Grieg's Piano Concerto (with Moscow State S.O. under Kondrashin) and Dvorak's Piano Concerto (with Prague S.O. under Smetacek). Better than good, anyway
The Richter recordings you mention are surely MK or Melodiya Soviet recordings (I may have the Rachmaninoff 2 on an MK LP or it may be a different version). I have the vaguest of recollections that Chant du Monde had a deal at one time to issue Soviet recordings in the West so they may have had access to mastertapes or more likely first generation copies (as EMI had at one time when thay had a deal with Melodiya). The Dvorak is presumably a Supraphon original. CBS (now Sony) recordings however are another matter. They have not, to the best of my knowledge, licenced their recordings elsewhere.
Hi Petra!
My copy of the Dvorak 9 with Ancerl is a slightly earlier one (2010) than the 'Gold Edition' one (2011). Mine is coupled with Vltava (Smetana) and has a picture of the Charles Bridge in Prague. The later 'Gold' one has tghe same coupling as the much earlier issue, so it might be the same mastering as that. I'm afraid I just don't know. and I don't have the earlier CD version, but I was comparing mine with the LP. It's a lovely performance though.
What do you have of the 'Talich Special Edition', and more particularly, how are the transfers?
Chris
PS: You can see a picture of the old Ancerl CD on Amazon.
Chris A.Gnostic