Gramofile & TRAVIATA
Fri, Apr 16 2010, 3:27AM
#2
RE: Trovatores Trovatores Trovatores Trovatores
For what it's worth, I just put in some more details on the Azucenas, Leonoras and Di Lunas on the Bjoerling/Cellini and Corelli/Karajan Trovatores --
http://www.operacast.com/trovatore.htm
So my thanks to caballe for having galvanized me to put some more specificity into my raves for those two sets.
Cheers,
Geoffrey Riggs
V pleased to read the additions to the website. The Mehta version of Il Trovatore was the third opera I bought and Leontyne Price was a singer new to me. I was so won over by her contribution following the nun's chorus from "Ebene" etc I was completely under her spell. Prior to that I thought she was too heavy for the role. What a miscalculation. Over the years I have acquired further sets with this great soprano in the role and I was delighted when BBC Radio 3 broadcasted a live recording featuring Bergonzi, Cossotto and Cappucilli in the main roles a couple of years ago late one Friday night which I stayed up to listen to. That recording is available but one has to draw a line, even though for me it was one of the finest performance of Il Trovatore I have heard.
Fri, Apr 16 2010, 4:12AM
#3
RE: Trovatores Trovatores
Thanks, caballe, for the reminder of the 1968 Schippers perf. I may be in a minority(?), but I personally find Cossutta's Manrico, on the Guadagno set, a sore trial. For me, that simply places it out of the running. If you want to know where I'd say I do draw a line of sorts, I guess it would be after Kurt Baum, whose fairly so-so Manrico (IMO) is just about tolerable at Mexico, where he's in company with Simionato, Callas and Warren at their absolute best. Cossutta simply crosses that line (for me), and although I enjoy both Arkhipova and Caballe a great deal there, they are not enough to compensate, I find (I guess that may seem pretty incorrigible to some).
I've only heard excerpts from the Schippers, and -- again -- I'm in a minority when it comes to the Manrico there as well. No question Tucker has a finer technique than either Baum or Cossutta, but by 1968, I simply find some of his singing too percussive (not always, but much of the time). I enjoy so much of his singing in the early '50s that I wish there were some Manrico of his extant from then. He's still accomplished on the (ca. '60) Price set (her first recorded Trovatore), of course, and he's preferable there to his '68 self, anyway.
Since I've only heard excerpts from the "live" Schippers, the Guadagno Caballe Trovatore is the only one I know complete. Those Schippers excerpts I did hear did not include any Azucena material, and for me the Azucena is even more important than the Leonora (I'm in a minority there too <ducking>). Please, can you tell the board here anything about Franca Mattiucci's Azucena on the "live" Schippers? Many thanks.
For readers here interested in judging for themselves, they can check out Tucker's big scene from this Caballe '68 Trovatore on YouTube at --
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj3Rc_CVDXc
Finally, if caballe gets to listen to the Zeani Traviata soon, might caballe give us some reactions to it for readers here? Again, thanks.
Cheers all,
Geoffrey Riggs
Sat, Apr 24 2010, 1:12AM
#4
RE: Trovatores Trovatores
Not Trovatore - Traviata. The Zeani set arrived three days ago. I was pleasantly surprised at the quality of the sound. First impressions; Zeani's performance is a very lived-in and thought through performance, full of nuance. I didn't find her as individual of utterance nor as moving as others (Callas & Cotrubas come to mind here with their plaintive tone) although Zeani's tone is rounder. It is clear the voice is no longer that of a young woman but it is in remarkably good condition, though she is occasionally shrill and a couple of times is slightly sharp. I may be carping as the voice is lovely and it could well be because the recording is so closely focussed. The tenor sounds awkward and ungainly at times - a pleasing instrument with amplitude but he lacks that individual and indefinable timbre which defines star quality. I prefer more elegance in the role of Alfredo. Herlea is clearly a major voice. I have only previously heard him as Scarpia and enjoyed his Germont very much. The orchestra sounds rather less refined than I am used to. Having said that I noticed individual instruments and elements of Verdi's score I had not heard before - a smaller orchestra perhaps? To my ears maybe not as integrated in the orchestral soundscape as I am used to. This may come across as overly negative. As I say, this is a first impression and in a few weeks I may come to a different conclusion.
Wed, Apr 28 2010, 5:45PM
#5
RE: Home
A rather belated addition to the Viginia Zeani stream. I was introduced to this great singer via the Parterre Box podcasts which are a great source of legal live recordings that can be downloaded as podcasts either through itunes or direct from the web-site. The link below is to a recording of Virginia Zeani and Giuseppe Gismondo in Mascagni's Il piccolo Marat. This 1962 performance also stars Nicola Rossi-Lemeni and Afro Poli; Ottavio Ziino conducts. There is also a recital where she performs selections from L'elisir d'amore, Louise, La rondine, Maria di Rohan, La forza del destino, La traviata and Mefistofele. The site is aimed at gay opera lovers and there is often a bit of sillyness at the start of some of podcasts that might not be to everyones taste, but the operas are usually given uninterrupted.
Thu, Apr 29 2010, 1:04PM
#6
RE: Gramofile & TRAVIATA
Martin,
Parterre Box is indeed a treasure trove, once you get past the exasperatingly unfunny host(ess) La Cieca. I spent an intriguing hour recently acquainting myself with Leoncavallo's "Edipo Re"...unjustly neglected, even if Stravinsky rather nails the subject a lot better!
Is there an internet-related term equivalent to "couch potato"? I suspect that I'm beginning to qualify.
Rob
Thu, Apr 29 2010, 2:42PM
#7
RE: Trovatores Trovatores
To jump in I was wondering if either of you have heard the second Mehta recording of Trovatore with Pavarotti, Verrett, Nucci and Antonella Banuadi (where is she now?). I recall hearing excepts from it at the time on the radio (the late lamented Classic FM Opera Show with Hugh MacPherson) but never thought it worth the £30 at the time. It's on Amazon at £10 and was wondering whether it was worth a listen. I usually have little time for late Pavarotti or Leo Nucci but respect Mehta and love Verrett and I am finding the Pappano Trovatore is less exciting each time I return to it.
Thu, Apr 29 2010, 4:39PM
#8
RE: Gramofile & TRAVIATA
Martin.
I haven't heard the 2nd Pavarotti Trovatore (I don't even remember it being released!), but I do have a sneaking affection for Karajan's 2nd EMI set, with Leontyne Price just a smidgen past her best (but still better than anyone singing the role today!), the king of Verdi baritones (for me, at least), Piero Cappuccilli, a supercharged Azucena from Elena Obraztsova and a true spinto (if hardly elegant!) Manrico from Franco Bonisolli. Ruggero Raimondi, no less, is Ferrando. Yes, it's overblown, brutal sometimes, but undeniably exciting (that Berlin Phil brass!) It could make a bracing antidote to the insipid and undercast Pappano you mention!
regards
Rob
Fri, Apr 30 2010, 10:16AM
#9
RE: Gramofile & TRAVIATA
NiklausVogel
On Trovatore - I seem to recall that Hilary Finch chose the second Von Karajan Trovatore as her Building a Library Recommendation. Yes I love it too. As you say Price is a shade beyond her best (the first Mehta with her, Domingo, Milnes and Cosotto is my first choice, Guilini 2nd and Serafin 3rd) but she's better here than in the Levine Forza recorded late in her career - I still don't understand what all the fuss is about on that particular recording.
The main drawback on the HVK Trovatore is the awful sound - recessed and such dynamic range so that you get blasted by the loud bits and can't hear the quiet bits. A fault of a lot of Von Karajan's EMI output in the late '70s e.g. Otello, Don Carlos. Although not quite as offputting as the frenetic HVK Carmen where Price, Corelli and Freni all seem to be playing tag with each other as they sing around your head!
Wed, May 19 2010, 3:24PM
#10
RE: Home
I'm delighted, Caballe, to know that the Zeani arrived, and I'm sorry that I took so long to return to this thread. I managed to get a job (remember those?), so professional obligations have simply swamped me.
Returning to this thread today, I should clarify that no Traviata set that I know is literally perfect. Rather, for me, it's a question of balancing different flaws. I do hear the very occasional sharp note from Zeani in the first act. But after that, the problem strikes me as more or less gone in the balance of the set. Moreover -- and I know different listeners can hear differently -- I hear the individuality of Zeani's singing as growing more distinct in the later scenes. In fact, although I generally like Cotrubas's reading, I actually find the Zeani more distinctive than the Cotrubas, although Zeani is not more distinctive than Callas, Albanese, Olivero (in excerpts), or Muzio (in excerpts).
I would agree that the orchestra does not have the smooth qualities heard in certain other Continental and Anglo forces. Yes, there is occasional scrappiness. But I still like the way Bobescu makes us hear so many details anew, as you say. In terms of aptness to the character, I suppose that Buzea can sometimes suggest Manrico in Paris. But I find the sound exciting enough to accept him on his own terms, and he does have a respectable enough legato to compensate for the occasional lack of elegance (I'm also grateful to have a small taste of the "O mio rimorso", although its ending is just plain odd [was that some kind of a tradition?]). A comparable case is Tucker on the young Moffo's set from '60: Tucker too has both a more heroic tone than most and a commendable legato, although he seems (to me) to apply that legato less consistently than Buzea does. Herlea's Germont I fully enjoy unreservedly and feel his may be one of the best readings on disc, both vocally and dramatically.
It gets back to a balance of flaws, I guess. I'm aware of certain small flaws in this set alongside the others. At the same time, all the other sets also have flaws in which one or two of them bother me slightly more than the relatively few here. Hence, my preference for this set -- in general. But I still look forward to reading your further impressions of both this and other sets going forward. If you find another set that strikes you as having fewer flaws than this one, I'm still eager to read your thoughts on why.
Best,
Geoffrey Riggs
Fri, May 21 2010, 12:59AM
#11
RE: Home
Hello again Geoffrey,
Oh yes I know too well what having a job means - little time for anything else, unfortunately. That's also the reason I haven't been able to revisit the Zeani Trav. I ordered Zeani's Tosca at the same time. This caught her rather late in her career. She brings to it many personal touches and it is a great shame she didn't record it sooner as her voice was no longer secure, especially on high. Still, that is true of many sopranos who have essayed the role on disc including several who recorded their versions earlier in their careers than Zeani. I am unlikely to return much to that set but I am looking forward to rehearing the Traviata as my initial reaction to Zeani's performance has stayed in my memory as one of the most moving interpretations I have heard, predominantly sung in lovely tone.
To the other enquirer re the Mehta Trovatore with Banaudi, Pavarotti, Verrett and Nucci - least said the better. Unfortunately, this was recorded too late in Pavarotti's and Verrett's careers where both of their voices sound parched. Banaudi, whoever she was, sounded provincial to my ears. Nucci stolid and reliable as Di Luna, no more. Needless to say, it didn't stay on my shelves too long. Best sticking with Mehta's version with Domingo, Price et al or Pav's previous version with Sutherland, Horne if you want Pavarotti. He's in good voice and Sutherland's bel canto Leonora is worth hearing for the embellishments, trills and and a recording that seems to capture very well how large her voice was.
Mon, May 24 2010, 8:57AM
#12
RE: Gramofile & TRAVIATA
NiklausVogel
On Trovatore - I seem to recall that Hilary Finch chose the second Von Karajan Trovatore as her Building a Library Recommendation. Yes I love it too. As you say Price is a shade beyond her best (the first Mehta with her, Domingo, Milnes and Cosotto is my first choice, Guilini 2nd and Serafin 3rd) but she's better here than in the Levine Forza recorded late in her career - I still don't understand what all the fuss is about on that particular recording.
The main drawback on the HVK Trovatore is the awful sound - recessed and such dynamic range so that you get blasted by the loud bits and can't hear the quiet bits. A fault of a lot of Von Karajan's EMI output in the late '70s e.g. Otello, Don Carlos. Although not quite as offputting as the frenetic HVK Carmen where Price, Corelli and Freni all seem to be playing tag with each other as they sing around your head!
Martin,
as far as Trovatores go, there can only be one winner for me (and one of my Desert island Discs), and that is the Callas/Karajan. I should explain, though, that when I was no more than about 12 I happened upon my grandfather's highlights disc from that set (I still have it). What an introduction to opera!
It wasn't Callas, I must admit, but the sound of di Stefano's voice singing "Mal reggendo" that made me sit up. I wasn't to know then that the role was really too big for him (and he never sang it on stage), I just thought "Oh, I want to do THAT!". (Alas, once my voice broke it settled into a lyric baritone of the Belcore/Valentin/Silvio variety, so even di Luna was never on the cards!)
First love tends to stay with you, and di Stefano, for all his occasional flaws, is still my favourite tenor (Bergonzi a close second) - he sings with a passion and total commitment that these days I only hear from Villazon. I wonder how many teenagers who hear their first tenor sounds from Paul Potts or Russell Watson will be smitten in quite the same way?
And, on this "Trovatore" Callas, Barbieri and Panerai aren't too bad either!
Thu, Jun 3 2010, 6:20PM
#13
RE: Trovatore/Traviata Gramofile & TRAVIATA
Something curious that's starting to emerge about Manrico casting: As one who first heard Di Stefano's recorded Manrico in my later teens, after having sampled a few other sets growing up, it seemed rather clear to me that Manrico was indeed one size too big for him, even though I appreciated the ardor of certain passages. Yet, in speaking with old-timers lucky enough to have heard him in his prime (alas, I only heard him once very late in his career -- one joint concert with Callas in New York, which was hardly fair or representative), they all speak of his voice having been somewhat more ample than Bjoerling's. Why is this relevant? Because Bjoerling kept Manrico in his active rep for twenty years with no appreciable damage. We even have recorded Manricos from Bjoerling, which hardly seem overtaxed, from '39, '42, '47', '52 and '58. These cover the main phases of his career and suggest a comfort level with Manrico that I don't hear from Di Stefano.
This is odd, because if all old-timers agree -- and they seem to -- that Di Stefano had the somewhat more ample sound, then how come Bjoerling with his slimmer tones seems to find Manrico a more comfortable fit than Di Stefano does? Putting aside the question of which tenor may be preferable in general -- for years, I preferred Di Stefano, but Bjoerling's earliest years are now starting to captivate me more, while I still find the '50s Bjoerling less interesting than Di Stefano -- the further question of the vocal type of tenor that each one is -- a question very distinct from sheer vocal quality per se -- lands us in a contradiction: the slimmer-toned Bjoerling rides easily with Manrico for twenty years, while the ampler voiced Di Stefano only attempts it once, and in the studio, and with uneven results.
This doesn't make sense. Are we missing something here?
Thoughts?
Best,
Geoffrey Riggs
Fri, Jun 4 2010, 7:28AM
#14
RE: Trovatore/Traviata Gramofile & TRAVIATA
A very interesting question, Geoffrey. For myself, I can only put it down to technique. I was never lucky enough to hear Bjorling or di Stefano in the flesh, but listening recently to di Stefano's live Met "Boheme" from '51 was interesting. There, he's content to sing as a lyric tenor, and the passaggio is well managed, Fs in particular well "covered", "closed", "darkened", call it what you will, allowing the transition all the way up to an easy C By the '57 "Trovatore" his (eventually ruinous) habit of opening these tones in an attempt to acquire some spinto weight makes the C in "Di quella Pira" something of an effort... and only six years later!
Bjorling never made this mistake, was always content to sing within his considerable means, and, to my ears, he makes a perfectly convincing lyric Manrico. If he sounds (at least in the RCA set) a tad gentlemanly beside the more impulsive di Stefano, well, I suppose it depends on the "nature versus nurture" argument. Di Stefano's Manrico was brought up a gypsy, but Bjorling has di Luna blood in his veins!
Bergonzi comes to mind here, too. Not, perhaps, an obvious Manrico voice in the Corelli / Lauri-Volpi / Bonisolli mould, but singing well within his means and with flawless technique he kept the role in his repertoire for some 20 years.
But...and for me it's a big "but", which Manrico would you rather have on your side in a sword-fight? Di Stefano every time! As always with my favourite tenor, he means business with every single note and word. But I'll still listen, and marvel, to Bjorling and Bergonzi.
best regards
Rob
Sun, Nov 14 2010, 8:04PM
#15
TRAVIATA & Gramofile
I can fully appreciate Mr. Riggs' disappointment regarding the exclusion of the Virginia Zeani Traviatas. Violetta was her signature role and one she performed around 648 times, an astounding record amongst sopranos. Hers was always a very nuanced and beautifully sung interpretaton that exploded with emotion.
With regards to her first set, is the reference to the 1960 Hamburg recording conducted by Napoleone Annovazzi? If so, does anyone know if it was ever issued in its entirety - I have only ever been able to find excerpts. Although I would agree that the second set generally has a better cast than the first, Zeani's first studio interpretation of Violetta has for me always been the supreme one amongst all recorded Traviatas that I have heard.
Kind regards,
Steven Smith
For what it's worth, I just put in some more details on the Azucenas, Leonoras and Di Lunas on the Bjoerling/Cellini and Corelli/Karajan Trovatores --
http://www.operacast.com/trovatore.htm
So my thanks to caballe for having galvanized me to put some more specificity into my raves for those two sets.
Cheers,
Geoffrey Riggs