Great Bruckner 5
Sat, Aug 27 2011, 3:24AM
#2
RE: Great Bruckner 5
Since, I think, we cover, grosso modo, the subject of the conductors on Bruckner, shall we embark on the more crucial question of the substance of his music.
I have already expressed certain reservations on the essence of his musical output, despite my huge admiration for the musical structure as such. Troyen1 called him one of the most heavenly of the compossers. I found him more solemn than "heavenly". His strictness and very austere writing deprives his music of this particular awe that comes from the unexpected. One thing that bothers me (and not only - there are quite a few musicians who feel the same way) is that both the structure and orchestration from the start to the very end shows very little progress. In particular, the orchestration is almost identical in all of his Symphonies.
If other words, Bruckner, as great is he is, he fails to give me any goosebumps (with the exception of the slow movement of the Seventh), while his contemporaries Brahms and Dvorak thrill me to the most, on every listening. Brahms composed only four Symphonies, but each one is a unique music journey. To a great extent, the same applies to the last four great, by any standard, Symphonies of Dvorak.
Any other views on the rather obscure figure of Bruckner?
Parla
Sun, Sep 11 2011, 9:52AM
#3
RE: Great Bruckner 5
IF you can find it, Klemperer's live performance from 1968(?) with the Vienna Philharmonic. Well recorded for the time, its an absolutely blazing account. I've rarely heard the old man in better form at any time in his career. It was released on Testament in a very expensive boxed set of live concerts with the VPO. The Horenstein recording on BBC legends is terrific too. I've heard some good things about the Jochum recording(s) but never listened so far.
Sun, Sep 11 2011, 7:18PM
#4
RE: Great Bruckner 5
IF you can find it, Klemperer's live performance from 1968(?) with the Vienna Philharmonic. Well recorded for the time, its an absolutely blazing account. I've rarely heard the old man in better form at any time in his career. It was released on Testament in a very expensive boxed set of live concerts with the VPO. The Horenstein recording on BBC legends is terrific too. I've heard some good things about the Jochum recording(s) but never listened so far.
I've got to stop reading these posts.
I've just forked out on Simone Young's expensive double SACD set of the original version of the 8th and now I need to seek out Klemperer's 5th.
No way.
Young's 8th is everything everybody says it is, by the way.
Mon, Sep 12 2011, 12:38AM
#5
RE: Great Bruckner 5
Bravo, Troyen1! Simone Young eventually starts shining. Her latest installment is the First on OEHMS, as usual.
If you dare, you may try her Brahms' s First too and for the conducting (mainly) even her Wagner (she has done the three first ones from the Ring).
Good listening!
Parla
Mon, Sep 12 2011, 4:46AM
#6
I have three great Bruckner
I have three great Bruckner 5th's on my Ipod. The most current coming from Benjamin Zander and the Philharmonia Orchestra (complete with discussion from the conductor). This got a recent Edior's choice from Gramophone and I have to agree!
Has anybody else heard and liked this recording!
Mon, Sep 12 2011, 12:14PM
#7
RE: Great Bruckner 5
Yes, I've got it, but I found it a little bit too fast and not very refined. I'm expecting the Simone Young's account, which seems too consistent with Bruckner. I also admire van Zweden's view in a brilliant recording on Exton.
Finally, Karajan and Wand from the "older" versions are bright enough, providing superb sound, after all. Celibidache, on Emi, is for the slow, very slow pace, but always convincing.
Good exploration and possibly listening.
Parla
Tue, Sep 13 2011, 12:21AM
#8
RE: Great Bruckner 5
Bravo, Troyen1! Simone Young eventually starts shining.
Good listening!
Parla
I'm probably starting another long and laborious haul here but, to hell with it: what do you mean?
I'll try to help you answer: do you mean that she starts shining for me?
See my previous post.
Tue, Sep 13 2011, 11:28AM
#9
RE: Great Bruckner 5
No, Troyen1, I read your posts.
I meant that, eventually, people, other than me, start speaking their positive views on a low key but quite worthy female conductor against the backdrop of the huge old names of male ones.
Parla
Sat, Oct 1 2011, 10:26AM
#10
RE: Great Bruckner 5 RE: Great Bruckner 5 RE: Great Bruckner 5
Hello Troyen1!
I am actually listening to Barenboim´s Bruckner cycle with the BPO right now. So far I´ve listened to symphonies 4, 6 and 8. And my opinion is that they are very good. I enjoy them a lot. I really can´t understand why people don´t like them or even think they are almost worthless or utterly bad. And I have always liked his Mozart recordings very much.
So, it´s a bit of a mystery why Barenboim seems to be so little appreciated by most classical music lovers. He certainly deserves more attention.
Adrian 3 replies:
I'm afraid I'm one of those who don't really appreciate Barenboim as a conductor. I have his Mozart Concertos with the BPO as well as the Bruckner you mention. You say "they are very good". I would agree but is that good enough in view of all the competition? The symphonies are beautifully played yet I feel that the whole is less than the sum of the parts: he doesn't really build climax upon climax so that one is left feeling let down. The Mozart late concertos are well enough played but I find no special insights - they seem routine to me.
However, on various sites I often see praise for Barenboim and he often gets good press notices.
Sat, Oct 1 2011, 11:56PM
#11
RE: Great Bruckner 5
The only truly great Bruckner conductors were Celibidache and Furtwängler. Excellent recordings of both are available commercially, but the real thing was hearing them live. I heard Celibidache often and his recordings are nothing like the real thing, but still better than any other recordings. The Furtwängler Bruckner 5 recordings are outstanding as well, and some in very good technical quality considering their age. Barenboim is a wonderful pianist but unconvincing conductor. The Karajan recordings are fine, but no more than that, the phrasing doesn't work and the symphonic nature doesn't come across, they are nice sounds but not a symphonic build-up. Maazel and Bruckner are no match, sorry.
Sun, Oct 2 2011, 10:17AM
#12
RE: Great Bruckner 5
I am an admirer of Celibidache, one of the great originals, but he could be quirky, notably in his recording of the Bruckner 8th, made in Munich, which lasts 100 minutes. Not long before his death he conducted the same work in Paris and this lasted just over 90 minutes - and even that seemed too slow. It is true that one can adjust to his time-scale and that it has a certain hypnotic effect. Even so, I feel we are hearing Celi's interpretation rather than what Bruckner wanted.
Mon, Oct 3 2011, 12:36AM
#13
RE: Great Bruckner 5
I'm afraid I have to agree with you Adrien3 on "Celi", but, quite often with conductors of this great talent and spirit, we happen to listen to their views rather than the composers' wishes. Celi is very slow indeed in every Symphony, but convincing in his strange, almost heretic way.
Ingomw don't be that adamant. The truth is one, but its facets plenty and all these great conductors (Karajan, Barenboim, Jochum and so on) trace all these different but valid aspects of truth. Even newcomers in the field, like van Zweden or P. Jarvi or Simone Young have recorded some very interesting Symphonies, with very impressive and analytical sound, that helps to follow and better comprehend these complex scores.
Parla
Fri, Nov 18 2011, 11:43AM
#14
RE: Great Bruckner 5
And yet, of course, Bernstein did both perform and record Bruckner. Albeit not especially well.
Fri, Nov 18 2011, 10:45PM
#15
RE: Great Bruckner 5
Of course, in the course of his career (particularly when he had to build it), Bernstein find himself under the pressure to perform and record once (if I remember well) Bruckner. However, since he felt nothing for the composer, he abandoned him forever after.
Parla
Yes, Simone Young's Bruckner is getting good reviews and, like Inbal decades earlier, she is going back to the original versions.
I have had the pleasure of hearing and seeing her conduct a couple of times. Her gestures are very precise but the startling fact is that she likes the slap and conducts in high heel shoes. And why not?
I received the impression that her orchestras liked her and that she is a bit of a no-nonsense character.
I may be completely wrong, of course, but I doubt that she could get such results without the orchestra, as one, behind her.
Worst recordings that I have heard go to Dohnanyi which is totally unBrucknerian and the dire Sinopoli.
I like Welser-Most. I should not, of course, but he does get a Viennese feel to his London orchestra that Dohnanyi failed to do in Cleveland.