I am not a Solti s "fan", and this are my reasons!!
"No Solti's "Ring" for your first stay in the "Desert Island?" (Parla said)
in my opinion that has been absolutely reasonable, dear Parla, the opposite would be a really incitement to suicide, arent you agree with me?? jajaja oscar.olavarria
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It depends on how "excited" one may become when he/she reaches the... "Funeral March", dear Oscar.
In any case, if one ever reaches the point of a "desert island" situation, he/she should know The Twilight...is coming, in one or the other way...So, it might be a bright idea to "enjoy" it...in style!
Parla
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an incredible Beethoven 9 from Bayreuth which, even in mono, sets my pulse racing
So you have recordings of Beethoven's 9th that don't set your pulse racing? Get rid of them immediately.
Seriously, just what is it with conductors? Why so much discussion of them and so little of the music they're conducting? Or is the music considered beyond criticism and only the perceived nuances of interpretation worthy of discussion? It's as if a literary society were never to discuss the plot, situations or characters of a novel but merely the relative merits of different editions of it.
I must admit that I don't often have more than one recording of a symphony or other big work, largely because I generally listen to such works only once every two or three years or so. Indeed, I used to have a policy of not having recordings of certain special works, of which Beethoven's 9th was one, to preserve the sense of occasion when I did get to hear them. So to be able to compare the relative merits of multiple recordings of Bruckner or Mahler symphonies, for example, strikes me as a full-time job. Do people really listen to these works that often?
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an incredible Beethoven 9 from Bayreuth which, even in mono, sets my pulse racing
So you have recordings of Beethoven's 9th that don't set your pulse racing? Get rid of them immediately.
Seriously, just what is it with conductors? Why so much discussion of them and so little of the music they're conducting? Or is the music considered beyond criticism and only the perceived nuances of interpretation worthy of discussion? It's as if a literary society were never to discuss the plot, situations or characters of a novel but merely the relative merits of different editions of it.
I must admit that I don't often have more than one recording of a symphony or other big work, largely because I generally listen to such works only once every two or three years or so. Indeed, I used to have a policy of not having recordings of certain special works, of which Beethoven's 9th was one, to preserve the sense of occasion when I did get to hear them. So to be able to compare the relative merits of multiple recordings of Bruckner or Mahler symphonies, for example, strikes me as a full-time job. Do people really listen to these works that often?
'There is more than one way to skin a cat' is a phrase that springs to mind. I do have more than one version of the ninth (four currently) and sometimes one gets substituted in for another. I guess it is how you see the idea of a recordings - for me there is no such thing as definitive and so each recording I keep is there because it does provide a different version of the music. I respect your viewpoint but for whatever strange reason I would feel limited.
Regarding talking about the music itself I think you will find there many topics that reach that area e.g. the 'Mahler profund?' and 'Requiems' threads (BTW I agree - not enough), but there are also many about making comparisions of artists (conductor, singer, soloist). This I suspect is somewhat related to Marx's idea of commodity fetishism (although I am no expert and could be completely wrong in my interpretation), plus also the simple fact that many of us do have favourites that we defend against those who do not. I don't disagree with your sentiment that it can be too much, but neither do I feel it has no place. As always, the probelm is if one loses perspective...
As for frequency, well I have no pattern. Just last month I must have listened to Schumann's Fantasie at least a dozen times. The first time was just because I am reading a biography at present and wanted to listen to it in the context of the letters between Schumann and Clara. The other times because after being reaquainted with it I decided to dig a little deeper and gain a better understanding of the piece. I then spiralled out into the Davidsbündlertänze and on to pieces by Liszt. Liszt led me back to Mahler (also induced by a thread here) and right now I am listening to some Henze, with an urge to go back into Hindemith and also have another go at Elliot Carter's string quartets. So there you go...
Naupilus
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Difficult to argue with that selection for the mythical Island.For Elgar I prefer some Boult stiff upper lip,but fair enough,for a foreigner Solti makes a good fist of the 1st. The Mahler is one of Decca's finest recordings.
With a few exceptions Opera and vocal music does not interest me.I notice that six of the eight choices belong to this category,so maybe....."I am not a Solti "fan" and this are my reasons!!"
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Regarding talking about the music itself I think you will find there many topics that reach that area e.g. the 'Mahler profund?' and 'Requiems' threads (BTW I agree - not enough), but there are also many about making comparisions of artists (conductor, singer, soloist). This I suspect is somewhat related to Marx's idea of commodity fetishism (although I am no expert and could be completely wrong in my interpretation), plus also the simple fact that many of us do have favourites that we defend against those who do not. I don't disagree with your sentiment that it can be too much, but neither do I feel it has no place. As always, the probelm is if one loses perspective...
As for frequency, well I have no pattern. Just last month I must have listened to Schumann's Fantasie at least a dozen times. The first time was just because I am reading a biography at present and wanted to listen to it in the context of the letters between Schumann and Clara. The other times because after being reaquainted with it I decided to dig a little deeper and gain a better understanding of the piece. I then spiralled out into the Davidsbündlertänze and on to pieces by Liszt. Liszt led me back to Mahler (also induced by a thread here) and right now I am listening to some Henze, with an urge to go back into Hindemith and also have another go at Elliot Carter's string quartets. So there you go...
Naupilus, I wasn't having a go at you in my previous post. I simply seized on your reference to Karajan's 9th to illustrate what seems to me the banalisation of monumental works, such as the Ninth, which for me should be great occasions and not everyday listening. You don't yet hear them played in supermarkets, like pop songs, but that will come; I'm sure of it. I remember as a Wagner-obsessed teenager dreaming of, if not being able to see, at least owning a complete Ring cycle on disc. It was then a dream. Today a teenager in the same situation could probably order two or three different recordings, possibly including a version on DVD, out of a month's (or week's?) pocket money. Now that I can afford multiple recordings of the Ring but am not so obsessed, I content myself with just one - Bohm Bayreuth 1967 - and I haven't listened to that in over three years. I just haven't time, not if I want to listen to all the other music that interests me - or simply the rest of my collection. Which leads me to rephrase my previous question; how do people find time to be able to make comparisons between multiple recordings of the Ring, or the complete symphonies of Bruckner and Mahler, or big works in general, without it impinging on other musical interests?
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Dear friends, all cant be completely good or bad, and because of that Im willing to recognize that Solti also made any good recordings, but generally in his first years, vgr Beethovens 3rd and 7th symphonies (from 70s), Tchaikovskys 4th symphony and Romeo and Juliet overture or symphonic poem, Elgars violin concerto with korean violinist Kyun Wha Chung like an acompanist, etc. oscar.olavarria
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Guillaume wrote "I simply seized on your reference to Karajan's [Beethoven] 9th to illustrate what seems to me the banalisation of monumental works, such as the Ninth, which for me should be great occasions and not everyday listening."
Guillaume, how I agree with you. Such music is not for 'comfortable' listening. The idea of half-listening to such music is horrifying, to me at least. It was Edward Greenfield (Gramophone, September 1966, p154) who famously (notoriously) opened his review of a recording of the Ninth with "A Ninth to live with".
If I have many recordings (including several by one conductor) it is to help me approach nearer to an idea (imaginary, in my head, I suppose) of what can be found in the music. Whilst I'm interested to hear what different interpreters find in the work, no less interesting is the way a single conductor's repeated attempts at the same music illustrate the struggle to get to its heart. As an admirer of Klemperer's Beethoven, I find it fascinating to hear how in each of his recordings of the Ninth (some from live performances), within essentially the same interpretation he attempts to get ever nearer to his idealised vision of the music. This makes for fascinating, demanding but rewarding listening.
Chris
Chris A.Gnostic
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Of course, Guillaume is right as for how to address works of the scale and profundity of the "Ninth". However, the damage has been done already, in various ways. The most notable, the most notorious choice to become the "national anthem" of the project of EU. Perfect!
Parla
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"an incredible Beethoven 9 from Bayreuth which, even in mono, sets my pulse racin..." (Naupilus)
which recording was that dear Naupilus?, by chance Furtwangler-Bayreuth Fest Orchestra s version? it is so, something similar happened to me when I heard that version for he first time, I was so impressed that during a period I was abssesed to obtain all Beethoven.s symphonies conducted by Furtwangler, and thas was a really deception to me, not so great like I experimented with something Soltis recordings, like I ve said before in other post, of course. In all cases that 9th is one of my favourites, together with Furt-Philharmonia Orch, Lucerna Fest, and Cluytens-Berlin Phil(none sings tenors aria better than Nicolai Gedda!!)oscar.olavarria
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Hi Oscar
I checked and I must apologise - my memroy was inacccurate - the recording is Karajan with the VPO in 1947, but in Vienna and not Bayreuth!
Naupilus
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Dear Naupilus, of course you are excused!, this is only a conversation, personally I dont remember when was the last time I listened the Ninth, could be perfectly 5 or 7 years, but its always be there, waiting for the ocassion. Something different happens to me with Mozarts symphonies or piano concertos, I listen it -I say- almost every day, or with Brahms s symphonies or piano concertos, specially the 3rd symphony or 1rst piano concerto, other work that I listen frecuently is "Ma vlast" cycle in Vaclac Smetacek s or Kdenek Kosler versions. I think is also a problem of affinity with the music or the interpreters, I prefer absolutely the great conductors or performers from the past, like Geza Anda,Erich Leinsdorf (in Mozarts symphonies), Brahms s symphonies in William Steinberg-Pittsburgh versions, from MCA classics, before Command label, etc, etc, Rims Korsakovs Scheherazade in Hermann Scherchen or Igor Markevitchs versions, an recently Bruchs Nº 1 violin concerto with Heifetz-Sargent 1951 version or Tchaikosvsky s violin concerto with Heifetz-Walter Susskind, that comes with an electrifyng Sarazate s "Zigeunerweisen" version, in NAXOSs Historical editions, that I recommend to you ardently!. Best regards. oscar.olavarria
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And here are the maestro's own 8 choices when he was cast away in 1966.
1. Verdi Requiem - Dies Irae (NBC/Toscanini)
2. Mozart String Quintet No4 - (Pro Arte Quartet)
3. Churchill's 1940 "Blood, toil, tears and sweat" speech
4. Wagner - Love duet from Tristan (Flagstad/Suthaus)
5. Schumann Piano Concerto - (Lipatti/Karajan)
6. Mahler 10th Symphony - (Philadelphia/Ormandy)
7. Shakespeare Sonnet No 138 - (John Gielgud)
8. Verdi - Falstaff Act 2, scene 1 - (Toscanini)
JKH