Karajan "The vienna Years"
Thu, Apr 25 2013, 9:58PM
Yesterday I bought two dics (CDs) from the Collection "The Vienna Years" with Herbert von Karajan, from EMI, and they had been really a suprise to me, the dics are:
1) Brahms Symphony Nº 2, with Mozarts masonic funeral music and Richard Strauss Methamorphoses, and...
2) Tchaikovsky "Pathetique" symphony, with "Romeo and Juliet" and Chabriers "España". Good sound for to be mono recordings from years 1946-1949, and suprisingly a moderate Brahms s symphony Nº 2 and Tchaikovskys "Pathetique", and a beautiful "España" from Chabrier, in what I think could be the only recording of this work by this conductor, or not??. Effectively the earlier Karajans recordings are the best!. Im thinking to buy all the other vols. Do you know this recordings? what do you think about them? Best regards. Excuse my english, please. oscar.olavarria
Fri, Apr 26 2013, 12:19AM
#2
RE: Karajan "The vienna Years"
The pompous old Nazi-turned-Zen-Buddhist though he'd reincarnate as an eagle after his death. Which is funny cause I saw a snail in my garden today that looked exacly like him.
I'm with the Donut man here. Music history has so much more and better stuff to offer than the recordings of this unsympathetic, politically abject and stylistically delusional conductor.
Fri, Apr 26 2013, 1:42AM
#3
RE: Karajan "The vienna Years"
I have a terrific wartime performance of the Eroica, recorded in the Netherlands. Compared to his later recordings it really spits fire.
Fri, Apr 26 2013, 1:50AM
#4
RE: Karajan "The vienna Years"
Get Bruno Walter`s stereo recordings of Mozart`s masonic music as well as his recording of Brahm`s Second Symphony.You can use those Karajan discs for skeet shooting.That man loved himself way too much.The music should always come first.Conductors like Walter,Reiner,Toscanini,and Monteux, were great conductors who were devoted to the MUSIC,not to getting rich and powerful and feeding their ego like Herr Karajan.(I love both Ansermet and Paray`s rendition of Espana and Ormandy`s Metamorphosen.)
Fri, Apr 26 2013, 2:18AM
#5
RE: Karajan "The vienna Years"
Oh well, I'm not a huge fan of Karajan, but his early recordings are not that bad, and I wouldn't make this a political forum...
The later Karajan is more "sugar coated" but there are some wonderful and fresh performances from the 50s and early 60s on disk.
Fri, Apr 26 2013, 4:17AM
#6
RE: Karajan "The vienna Years"
It's amazing how much vitriol there is whenever Karajan is mentioned. Did any of you ever hear him live in concert or opera? I did - in Beethoven at a Winter Prom in 1973. It was one of the foremost experiences of my life. Do you have any specific examples of where you think there is "sheen". I have many of his recordings and cannot detect anything like it. However I do hear a tremendous maturity, energy and clarity borne out of hard experience.
Perhaps a read of Richard Osborne's superb biography should be mandatory before expressing an opinion on the subject.
Oscar - do not be put off by these negative comments. I think you will find that a lot more people will agree with your assessment. Karajan developed during his career and his recordings in the 50s, 60s and 70s were quite different, so the post war period you mentioned should be of great interest.
Fri, Apr 26 2013, 5:02AM
#7
RE: Karajan "The vienna Years"
I see whenever we have to deal with a persona somehow larger than life, we cannot afford him/her easily. Karajan, for whatever one my attribute to his life political convictions and conducting style, was a great conductor of an established reputation. The great thing I found quite interesting is that he made BPO to reach top form in refinement of sound, developed some of the finest soloists (working for long in the Orchestra too) and cared more than many other conductors for the sound of his recordings and the Philharmonie in Berlin.
He was not faultless and he had his ups and downs, but he created a legacy (both in performances and recordings) that has already been, across the globe, well established. Even if he manipulated the media, the latter had no problem to exploit what was in their disposal: an extraordinary talent with strong convictions and a way to push forward his ideas and views. The response of audiences and the general public as well as the worldwide sales of his recordings proved that he could did it his way!
So, Oscar, go ahead, if you find early Karajan fine for your perception. In performances, there is room for various approaches. The wider our perception, the broader our scope for accepting more different views of the same work of Music.
Parla
Fri, Apr 26 2013, 12:23PM
#8
RE: Karajan "The vienna Years"
I know, MD, we're far apart, but I cannot imagine how a conductor who managed to have memorable (to say the least) performances and "reference" recordings with different orchestras of the highest calibre (it was not only the BPO; he had many successful ones with VPO and Philharmonia at least), worked for various major labels (not only DG; there were successful recordings with Decca and EMI too plus...) and left his mark in the development of Classical Music cannot be considered as great.
Anyhow, I may agree that he is one of the musical figures in the Classical Music who divides more and more people, but he managed to create a tradition and leave a legacy, after all...
Parla
Fri, Apr 26 2013, 1:21PM
#9
RE: Karajan "The vienna Years"
Karajan responsible for the BPO reaching "top form" in anything? That gotta be a joke. The BPO was the world's best orchestra in the 30's and 40's and the person responsible for it reaching "top form" was someone whose shoes Karajan wasn't even worthy to tie. When he took over as chief conductor, he just inherited Furtwängler's legacy, a legacy on which he didn't so much build on, but replaced it with his own misguided vision. ("What's Hell? It's being a wind player in the BPO under Karajan for all eternity.") At the end the orchestra hated him so much that he only prevented getting the boot by conveniently dropping dead.
What Karajan had in plentiful amounts wasn't so much talent, but luck. His nazi party memberschip (as early as 1933, it wasn't like someone forced him) boosted his early career and his ruthless, borderline criminal behavour during the war got him where he wanted to be, in the "waiting chamber" of the BPO.
More luck: after the war it was Furtwängler was suffered most, undeservedly, from a tarnished reputation, not the ruthless nazi Karajan. Even more luck - or rather, more clever manipulating: After Furtwängler's death he managed to become chief conductor of the BPO, and not Keilberth, the orchestra's choice.
I wonder how music history would have looked like if Keiberth, Celibidache or Bohm would have succeeded Furtwängler, and not Karajan. My guess is that orchestras not only in Germany but worldwide would be less focused on polished sound and an interchangeable uniform style. Because you can say what you want about Karajan, but you can't deny that he was very influential. In a bad way, that is.
Fri, Apr 26 2013, 1:37PM
#10
RE: Karajan "The vienna Years"
Given the diverse opinions this conductor seems to generate, it is surprising that no-one has sought to make a biopic of Karajan. I fact there is a film about Furtwangler played by Stellan Skarsgard. Having seen this myself it is easy to see why some people get angry about this subject matter.
The Karajan-Bruckner recordings were very popular at one time, but it seems that they have gone out of favour. The music expert Stephen Johnson was highly critical of the 4th on radio3's "building a library" recently. It is not so much the sugar-coating, but using extra thick organic syrup!!
DSM
Fri, Apr 26 2013, 3:45PM
#11
RE: Karajan "The vienna Years"
Karajans Bruckner cycle is one of the betters of all, Albert Imperato in this site says about it in his Blog, the following:
"Having listened to this boxed set now over the past couple of weeks, I’m
convinced that Karajan’s Bruckner cycle for DG remains one of his
finest achievements. While I can understand and appreciate a host of
different interpretative approaches to Bruckner, Karajan’s way with the
music couldn’t be clearer: For him, sumptuous, majestic sound is an
absolutely essential element to a great Bruckner performance. And
throughout Karajan’s cycle, Bruckner’s writing for strings and brass is
revealed in all its ravishing splendor. Sure, other conductors have
brought out more of the rustic grit of these works, but few can rival
him for conveying their awesome power and mystery. Over and over again,
as I listened anew, the gleaming BPO brass shone out with a
transfiguring fire. Where other conductors are often undone by
Bruckner’s tempi changes and abrupt transitions, Karajan presents each
entire symphony in a single musical line, as though they have been cut
from a single, shimmering cloth."
Best regards. oscar.olavarria
Fri, Apr 26 2013, 4:41PM
#12
RE: Karajan "The vienna Years"
Hindsight is 20-20, and it's all too easy to accuse an ambitious person (and who isn't?) of being a Nazi, so try living in a totalitarian regime, see what decisions and compromises you have to make in order to survive and get on, and then come back and make your comments.
Fri, Apr 26 2013, 5:35PM
#13
RE: Karajan "The vienna Years"
>so try living in a totalitarian regime...
More importantly, we have to ask ourselves as to why a sophisticated European culture - the birthplace of the enlightenment - degenerated into a fascist totalitarian regime. We can't just go around blaming individuals like Karajan or Wagner, and is this what Bruckner is warning about on his deathbed as he tried to piece together the last few bars of his 9th Symphony finale jigsaw?
DSM
Fri, Apr 26 2013, 6:34PM
#14
of conducting
If even the "opponents" of Karajan called him "influential", that's enough for his role and importance in the history of conducting in 20th century. "Bad" (or not) influence is irrelevant and it is a pure value judgement. Influence divides on the basis of individual or group's interests, perceptions, viewpoints etc.
Influential people shape the course of things to come and leave their mark in the development of the History of Politics, Art, Science etc. However, I would not call Karajan primarily an influential conductor. I think he was more a sort of visionary, who pursued firmly and with consistency his goals, than influential, at least with the political sense of the term.
Parla
Fri, Apr 26 2013, 7:49PM
#15
RE: Karajan "The vienna Years"
The BPO was the world's best orchestra in the 30's and 40's and the person responsible for it reaching "top form" was someone whose shoes Karajan wasn't even worthy to tie. When he took over as chief conductor, he just inherited Furtwängler's legacy, a legacy on which he didn't so much build on, but replaced it with his own misguided vision.
Was it the unequivocally the "best" orchestra in that era? I would have thought that strong cases could be made for Boston/Koussevitsky or Philadephia/Stokowski amongst others.
What is your evidence that Furtwangler was responsible for the orchestra reaching "top form" technically - weren't they already considered great to some extent when he took over? (Certainly they sound as good under e.g. Abendroth from the same era.)
Ted
1:09 pm Thursday. Greetings once again from the distant island of Maui, Hawaii.
What is exactly poor about both the recordings and performances of the Karajan Viennese renditions? Irvine Shamrock