Let's hear it for Sir Colin
Sun, Nov 6 2011, 12:44AM
#2
RE: Let's hear it for Sir Colin
So we British try to boost our own product, so what?
Others do not?
It seems that we appear to be the only nation guilty of this trait, according to those outside the country or Americans. Stick around in France, for example, for a time and see how they behave towards their own. Patrie, clearly, begins and stays at home. Also, the French keep all the best of their produce to themselves. It can be found but rarely in Auchan, Carrefour or Leclerc.
I have found it difficult over the years to find a 'Harold in Italy' to match the Menuhin/Philh'./Davis performance. Gramophone said it lacked humour, duh!
However, the version I'm happy to live with is Gardiner.
If we hang around long enough there will be as many trashing everything as there will be those praising the same, although I suspect some do either or both just to be argumentative.
I cannot comment on Davis' Mozart because I have the faintest interest in the composer but every conductor has his failures on disc and Sir Colin is no exception (the RCA/LSO Sibelius symphony cycle should never have been allowed, for example, - now up pops somebody to say how wonderful and life enhancing it is<sigh>).
Beecham was a great joker and some of his jokes would barely be acceptable today, except, perhaps, for the Brodsksauruses of this World, like his comment on why he never had women in his orchestras, bad enough as it is.
However, he was a truly great conductor and innovator, surprisingly.
Anyone else that can be rubbished: Furtwangler, Toscanini, Kleiber, Klemperer, Abbado, Elder, Gardner as opposed to Gardiner?
Bring it on. Let's continue in this vein of negativity, why not?
Sun, Nov 6 2011, 2:06PM
#3
RE: Let's hear it for Sir Colin
Well we are certainly backward in pushing our own great composers. Practically every conductor has to have a recording of La Mer and some of the other French tone poems in their discography, there must be dozens of recordings. Yet how many foreign conductors have taken on Tintagel or Bridge's The Sea, equally fine pieces of music. How many foreigners (other than perhaps Barenboim) have conducted the two greatest 20th century symphonies (I mean of course Elgar). What little of Delius would we know other than for Beecham in particular, plus Barbirolli and more recently Handley & Hickox (I assume Dr B does not care for Delius's music).
Sun, Nov 6 2011, 3:00PM
#4
RE: Let's hear it for Sir Colin
Ah, you would be wrong 33lp. A composer probably in need of reassessment, I've got a couple of Delius discs that I sometimes give a little spin. I was actually thinking about purchasing the recent concertos disc with Tasmin Little, but decided to wait until I'd heard a little more than the short airing Andrew McGregor gave it a few weeks ago. Ironically he is now probably suffering from the treatment Beecham gave him. Frank Bridge is certainly a composer who we should investigate more. People tend to judge that he was eclipsed by Britten but he certainly had his own voice and I've got a suprising amount of Frank Bridge on CD. The string quartets on naxos are a good place to start. Or an RCA coupling of the Delius Violin Sonatas with Little and a selection of Bridge orchestral works, deleted I think but can be found.
Sun, Nov 6 2011, 4:20PM
#5
RE: Let's hear it for Sir Colin
Dr B wrote:
Ah, you would be wrong 33lp. A composer probably in need of reassessment, I've got a couple of Delius discs that I sometimes give a little spin. I was actually thinking about purchasing the recent concertos disc with Tasmin Little, but decided to wait until I'd heard a little more than the short airing Andrew McGregor gave it a few weeks ago. Ironically he is now probably suffering from the treatment Beecham gave him. Frank Bridge is certainly a composer who we should investigate more. People tend to judge that he was eclipsed by Britten but he certainly had his own voice and I've got a suprising amount of Frank Bridge on CD. The string quartets on naxos are a good place to start. Or an RCA coupling of the Delius Violin Sonatas with Little and a selection of Bridge orchestral works, deleted I think but can be found.
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Glad to see you like Little's Delius Dr B, presumably the recording I have originally on the now defunct Conifer label (given a rosette in the Penguin guide). But did Record Review mention Little's earlier concerto recordings: do I need to supplement them? Actually I think Little gets strong competition from Ralph Holmes in the violin concerto and sonatas on a couple of the seven excellent Unicorn CDs dedicated to the composer. There was, incidentally, a fabulous unsurpassed recording of the piano concerto (final vesion) on a Decca British Composers CD (maybe still available) by Jean-Rodophe Kars with Alexander Gibson & the LSO in the usual Decca sound. Kars was a prize winner in the second Leeds competition but gave up a career as a concert pianist to become a monk.
When it comes to Beecham however the composer took a different view to DrB. In the book "Delius as I knew him" Eric Fenby writes "Beecham had given a concert to a private audience at the Kingsway Hall and happily for us it was broadcast. He then gave a thrilling interpretation and Delius in his usual manner of addressing the conductor as if he was in the room shouted "Perfect,Thomas;Perfect". Each work brought comment such as this and by the end of the programme his enthusiasm knew no bounds. "I should be satisfied with a few superlative performances like these each year" he afterwards confided "rather than the mediocre ones that I all too frequently hear" ".
Sun, Nov 6 2011, 4:57PM
#6
RE: Let's hear it for Sir Colin
If I was in the business of making cars and a popular lunatic walked in (let's say Jimmy Saville, but it could be anyone) and said ''Now then, now then, your cars are the greatest cars in the world to drive you see, oohoohooh, I would like to purchase one from you, oohoohooh''. Now looking at the way Jimmy dresses (dressed RIP Jimmy Saville OBE) and the rubbish that pours from his mouth, I would know the guy had no taste. But I want to sell my cars, so I would say ''Jimmy Saville has excellent taste''.
Sun, Nov 6 2011, 8:50PM
#7
RE: Let's hear it for Sir Colin
How many foreigners (other than perhaps Barenboim) have conducted the two greatest 20th century symphonies (I mean of course Elgar).
Actually, Elgar hasn't done too badly (VW also). Slatkin and Sinopoli did both symphonies and I still think the Barenboim/Zuckerman recording of the VC is the equal of any. There was also, briefly, a Svetlanov performance of Elgar 2. Apparently the work has some following in Russia.
I agree on the Holmes Delius VC, by a country mile the best recording of this work I've heard.
Bias doesn't only have national parameters. Some conductors have/had strong support far beyond their home turf - Boult, Mackerras, Levine for example. At the same time there's a sort of unofficial pecking order within countries that doesn't always make sense to an outsider. Sir Simon walks on water to the British press and the disparity between the two Davis's is puzzling. I've heard many great performances from Andrew, both live and on disc and would rate him far above Colin.
Sun, Nov 6 2011, 11:35PM
#8
RE: Let's hear it for Sir Colin
33lp, just for the record from an outsider (international listener): La Mer is a brilliant masterpiece of French music as quite a few other scores of Debussy and Ravel, while Titangel or any other tone poem of English composers are excellent pieces of music. The international audience and conductors are attracted with brilliance, not only excellence, craft, skills, etc.
In the same way, Elgar's Symphonies, although great technical masterpieces, lack the brilliance of the orchestral scores of R. Strauss, the sparkle of some of the Sibelius ones and the unexpected fire and extremely unusual beauty of Shostakovich works, to mention few. On the other, stylistically they seem to belong to 19th century or at least to a transition between 19th and 20th centuries. A brilliant exception is his Cello Concerto, which has been honoured more internationally and, by all means, the colourful Planets by Holst, showing what may make the difference.
(By the way, lately Ashkenazy recorded in the superlative sound of the Exton label the major orchestral works of Elgar).
Parla
Mon, Nov 7 2011, 12:50AM
#9
RE: Let's hear it for Sir Colin
Andrew above Colin? You jest, surely.
The Slatkin, Barenboim, Sinopoli and Solti recordings of the Elgar symphonies can vie with each other in the remainder bin.
However, the Sinopoli 2nd gives me a perverse pleasure. What a git that man was?
Ashkenazy can't conduct for toffee and , like Barenboim and one or two dozen other pianists, should have stuck to tickling the ivories.
Now I shall sign off in the clear knowledge that somebody will come on to tell me that Ashkenazy's performance of Bushtucker's 2nd Symphony with the Central Australian Kazoo Band and Symphony Orchestra is the best performance and recording they have ever heard, or something similar.
An exception that proves the rule is Haitink. Not a first choice, perhaps, but he brings the same values as he did to his VW cycle.
Mon, Nov 7 2011, 1:25AM
#10
RE: Let's hear it for Sir Colin
Oops! Don't know how I forgot Solti's Elgar symphonies when his recording of No 1 was the first I bought! I think they're great!
In my younger days when I bought the EMI/Melodiya boxed set of Shostakovich symphonies I would readily have declared him the greatest 20th century symphonist. Now I very rarely play one.
Mon, Nov 7 2011, 1:36AM
#11
RE: Let's hear it for Sir Colin
An exception that proves the rule is Haitink. Not a first choice, perhaps, but he brings the same values as he did to his VW cycle.
No kidding. As inspiring and life-enhancing as a re-run of East Enders.
Mon, Nov 7 2011, 3:13PM
#12
RE: Let's hear it for Sir Colin
Hearing is believing, Troyen. Unless you have listened to most of the recordings of all these "dozens of pianists" / conductors or you have seen them "live", then you may justify the otherwise your arbitrary conclusion.
The Ashkenazy recording of Elgar on Exton give a very detailed account of these quite complex scores allowing to bring to the fore all the beauty of the colourful and rich orchestration of Elgar's orchestral works. Under these optimum quality recordings, the Sydney Symphony Orchestra sounds much better than low key recordings of BPO or VPO or LSO, etc. His Sibelius cycle on Exton too gives the best possible account of the Symphonies of the great Nordic master, not necessarily in terms of interpretation but of precision and presentation. His Prokofiev as well.
I happened to have seen "live" several times Barenboim, when I was in Berlin. His performances were almost always sold out (normally at exorbitant ticket prices) and audience, musicians, press, experts, etc were absolutely thrilled. I may not join them a this level of enthusiasm, but I thoroughly enjoy his great artistry, commitment and vision. Another great case of Pianist/Conductor is Mikhael Pletnev. Quite a few of his recordings and live performances are very exciting. His Russian repertory is exceptional.
Just for the record
Parla
Well, the thread is on fire. Now, we got Davis' two Sibelius cycles, to prove that critics (or reviewers according to most magasins) do not perform their jobs properly, but we always read them wit a view to judging them.
Just for the record, the LSO live recordings do not do true justice to the Orchestra and the "poor" conductors, who are supposed to perform miracles in the real Live, but in the "live recording", we found something else. I tried, however, in my high-end equipment (Krell, Classe Audio, Wilson Audio) to listen, under specific conditions, some of the recordings of LSO Live, including some of Davis' Sibelius and they do reveal some of the possible "original" beauty of the performance. CDs are products, unfortunately; they are not the real thing; and based on what equipment, space, conditions (best possible, quiet environment, etc), they sound differently from equipment to equipment, from one space to another and so on.
So, focus on the music, unless you wish to have always food for enough debate on these forums, demolishing musicians, conductors, orchestras etc, on the basis of very subjective evidence.