Mendelssohn symphonies

I didn't see the series but in terms of the development of the symphony over the course of the 19th century Berlioz's Symphony Fantastique is a ground breaker, much more so than works by Schumann and Mendelssohn (fantastic as some of them are!). I am always amazed by Berlioz's symphony in terms of the 'modernity' that I hear both in the development of themes and the orchestration. Did they also talk about 'Romeo & Juliette'? I remember a very fun moment from one of Bernstein's lectures where he plays the opening of "Tristan', turns with a wry smile to camera and plays a passage from R&J, almost identical. Naughty Wagner...

The inclusion of Liszt is more puzzling, given both symphonies are less often heard. There is, to my ears at least, a link between Berlioz/Liszt and Mahler that can be made. For me again it is in the 'picture painting' quality of all three, particualrly in the symphonies that have a programme element. There is also the element of the link between all three - Goethe's 'Faust' (although in a different form, Schumann was drawn to the same work). Then again, while not strictly a symphonist, Richard Strauss gave two works (at least I think) the title symphony and Strauss certainly could not have existed without the influence of Berlioz and Liszt.

I guess the problem is always time - a TV series that really covers the symphony would need to be very long indeed. If you just chose the 10 most significant of all time (and that would be another difficult choice) and gave them one show each you would have a series longer than any station seems willing to do today.

Parla

I am not sure if you have seen the clip I mentioned but I don't think Bernstein was making a joke. Rather I think he was just saying (and here I could be wrong, as it is a long time since I saw the clip) that the famous chord had ancestors. Undoubtedly Wagner did indeed do something genuinely (and magnificently) original with a chord that to this day is endlessly examined - such is genius. But we all, 'stand on the shoulders of giants', to quote another genius, Sir Isaac Newton. Or as Picasso put it, 'Bad artists copy, Good artists steal'. And before anybody thinks I am saying that Wagner (or any other artist) is guilty of stealing or plagiarism look to the comparative Picasso makes.

DSM

I would absolutely agree that the Symphony Fantastique is not a 'type 1 sonata form symphony' - I think that was the point I was trying to make. If you are mapping out the development of the symphonic form throughout history (as I assume the series was intending) you have to give space to those works that represent a 'developmental shift' in some way. For my ears the Symphony Fantastique is a masterpiece and original development of the symphony. It isn't in the established mould of the period or the conventions of the time, which why I would put in the series.

I have always thought Bruckner's symphonies display clear links to Schubert - perhaps this in part prejudiced by my rememberence of Schumann's comment about the Schubert 9th and its 'heavenly length'. With all the repeats Schubert's last symphony is almost as long as many of Bruckner's works and for me needs the same levels of concentration. I would also agree with you that he must have know something of Schumann's symphonies; are you talkng about the fourth movement of the 3rd in particular?

Back to Mendelssohn (I have let the topic go off thread and Parla will be at my heels again!). The Italian is a wondeful symphony but as I wrote before I am particularly keen on the 5th Symphony; as Parla deftly noted I am happiest listening to the minor key works. I wonder why?

It is true the last movement of the Italian caused him substantive trouble and he always wished to revise it. However, he was alone in his anguish. Historically, experts, public and musicians have called this Symphony a perfect work, while the last movement was considered as a gem! The fact that is throughout in the minor, while the Symphony is in the tonic major, I don't think was the real problem, despite it was a real novelty for the time. However, I cannot speculate for the possible reason(s). One guess is that this movement is the most italian from the four and a very unusual piece of work from the young Felix. There is also a great contrast compared to the very solemn and almost religious d minor Andante con moto and the smooth flowing third movement (minuet).

One of my very favourite Mendelssohn's works is the String Quintet in B-flat major, op. 87.

Parla

...If you wish to see it like that, Guillaume.

However, I wouldn't blame the young composer's anguish for a different path to perfection and, definitely, I wouldn't praise my "taste", "opinion" or even perception for whatever the Italian is worth.

Parla