New Klemperer releases on EMI

Very impressive and eloquent your post, hewett_dick. While I could agree with the general thrust of your view on Klemperer, allow me some observations:

- Klemperer's Bach has definitely "integrity", but still it sounds old, heavy, almost dragging. If he considered that Bach's music dictates this kind of performance even of the Mass in b minor, reality proved him wrong. There are plenty of very beautiful, more versatile, lean and authentic performances at least in the discography, showing exactly the various aspects of this great work. I don't think either that performances "historcally correct" with the authority of a Leonhardt or Harnoncourt or even Kujiken and Herreweghe lack "integrity" or characterised by pedantry. They are extremely good , musically superb and historically correct performances.

- "Pragmatic" and "magisterial" can fit in some works, but when applied to any possible work, it looks at least "inflexible", stern and rigid. The "organic whole" cannot work without the appropriate respect of its "individual parts".

- Mozart and Mendelssohn require this sort of "elegance" called refinement. Klemperer sounds so "heavy", being "magisterial" (for his pragmatism I have my doubts) all the way, that the music of such meticulously refined composers may look so out of its context and nature. This is a Klemperer's Mozart. Take it or leave it. Bohm was less imposing and, definitely, more respectful of Mozart's music. Karajan was strong and heavy, but he kept a sort of enough refinement. Bernstein too, while Marriner, Harnoncourt and others went as close as possible to the Mozartian sense.

-As for his Mahler, despite the "authenticity" (how authentic a composer's student/assistant might be) and "modernity" (one statement about Stockhausen is enough) cards, I still find a certain number of his performances too rigid, strict and lacking any sort of flexibility. Of course, it is magisterial, imposing, but Mahler's music is such a colourful and multifold thing. Walter was so different, despite his apprentice years with the composer. So...

Having said that, I can never try to imply that Klemperer was a lesser conductor. He was great for what he was (in his own merit). I am not that thrilled with his performances. At least, not always.

Parla

History Man, from what I have seen in the posts on this thread, none so far claimed that the old chap did not sound "old, heavy, almost dragging" or that he sounds elegant, refined, versatile, flexible. Those who defend him to the end claim other features of his greatness (magisterial, pragmatic, his personal perception of the music and some more). I also said that, despite the odd characteristics of his Mozart, for example, one has to "take it or leave it". (Actually, I took some of his Mozart, Bach, Mendelssohn, Schumann etc.)

The fact of the matter is that Klemperer did not smile that much and his performances cannot hide that. They are too serious, stern, rigid, ponderous, magisterial and some more. Mozart, Bach, Mendelssohn, even Schumann are not only that. Of course, for a Missa Solemnis, Ein Deutsches Requiem or Der Fliegende Hollander and some more solemn works, his style works perfectly fine.

In sum, a great conductor but not for all seasons.

Parla

"A germanic sense of humour"? (The sort of humour, where none smiles). If there might be such a thing, then, one may find some sort of explanation for Klemperer's "magisterial, pragmatic and personal perception of the music".

The rather notorious reply "you'll get used to it" demonstrates some kind of arrogance, but not at all unusual among artists with strong convictions.

I didn't talk about "excessive 'elegance'", but rather of refinement, which I doubt someone can find in Klemperer's ponderous conducting (in works full of obvious humour, fun and exhilarating music). At least Bohm and much more Bernstein could provide either the finesse or the happy and exciting side of composers such as Mozart, Mendelssohn, Schumann etc.

Parla

What a pity this isn't an attitude shared by all posters

I was at that Prom Chris, and agree that the Mozart was achingly dull, a difficult achievement given the music. The Mahler was superb, however. I distinctly remember the final pause in the first movement seemed to go on for ever.

Which of the versions of the Klemperer downloads of the Beethoven 9th is in the best sound, "Stream" or "Zip"?

Uliwer, by referring to some old recordings of Klemperer on some youth Symphonies does not change the fact that most of his well-known EMI recordings of the major Mozart works sound indeed slow, dragging even pompous. Particularly, his Opera recordings are almost a disaster (e.g. La nozze di Figaro) and the late Symphonies sound like almost Gothic ones. It's an interesting alternative of a conductor of authority, but a remotely idiomatic one.

The Music for Summernight's Dream does not need "so much drama". It is incidental music for a "comedy" (this how the play is categorised and, definitely, it is not a clear drama per se). There should be nuances of elegance, refinement, beauty of tone, clarity of the musical lines and so on. The "Hebrides" Overture is an island in the North Atlantic, but it should not sound all the way teutonic. In any case, I think the Symphonies he recorded sound a bit too heavy and less flexible (see the "Italian" for example).

As for Wagner, he was quite right to dismiss Mendelssohn after his early years. He was not mean at all. Mendelssohn had been almost stagnant in his development, while Wagner...

Parla

Chris, I'm not afraid to be "leading with my chin", if need be.

My referrence to "youth Symphonies" was about uliwer's mentioning of K.183 and K.201. The "Boulez reference to K.550" does not constitute a recording.

Of course, what I see as "slow, dragging or pompous" is a personal perception. However, those who disagree have not proved (so far) the opposite! At least, certain performances of specific recordings are factually slow, dragging etc. (Le Nozze, Cosi fan Tutte, to mention just two).

I fail to see in which way Klemperer's performances of Mozart "contributed significantly to overturning the common..." With few exceptions (possibly Karajan and Bernstein, but with much different style and refinement of sound), the trend has become (again) a Mozart of chamber style orchestras, lean and elegant playing, even return to "period" practices or/and instruments. In any case, I don't feel as a "beneficiary" of the Klemperer (short) development. However, I am interested in listening to his recordings as the view of a man of a great spirit and strong convictions.

Again, in Mendelssohn, his "valuable corrective" was short-lived. Mendelssohn, the last decades, has been performed with elegance, smaller orchestras, refinement of tone, transparency of line etc. One of the very good recordings of the "Hebrides" I own is the one with the Scottish Chamber Orchestra (on Linn). It has almost nothing to do with the Klemperer "corrective" line. And what for? The orchestration even of the "Hebrides" is standard, lean and entirely classical (not even the presence of trombones. Just two trumpets and the horns in the brass section).

Mendelssohn, contrary to most of the composers, had the features of a child prodigy, who did not manage to grow, mature and develop a cycle of a solid opus. Mozart, in a shorter life, did it. Schubert too (in even shorter life). In Mendelssohn, with few exceptions, the masterpieces were there from the beginning and they were occasionally repeated afterwards. Take the "Lieder ohne Worte" or even his whole Piano output (masterpieces pop up at any time and unevenly, in his lifetime). His Lieder or even his Choral Works too. His First Piano Trio is more popular than his Second, while both sound equally good. His Second String Quintet is a way forward than his First, but the latter could be easily written as a "mature" work (it is equally beautiful and sounds wonderful too). In the String Quartets, there is a kind of "development" (progress), but still, in the op.44 we have three clearly uneven Quartets. So, where is the development (growing in artistic maturity) in the form let's say of Beethoven or Haydn?

Parla