Ode to joy - pull the other one Beethoven.
Thu, Nov 10 2011, 5:55PM
I have just been listening to Beethoven's 9th symphony ( Abbado CBS ) - It's a great work, not his greatest symphony, until we get to that God awful long Ode to Joy. What was he thinking about. Brotherhood and all the world joining hands, do me a favour. It's like listening to a UN conference set to music, and seems to last as long. The 3rd is a great work, far better than the 9th, and Napoleon knew how the world worked, none of that liberal tripe, if you want it - take it, and then spend your retirement on a nice little island in the Med. To the third and Napoleon I take my hat off, to the ninth ...........
Thu, Nov 10 2011, 10:06PM
#2
RE: Ode to joy - pull the other one Beethoven.
...However, as a maverick, he is doing a "great" job. Now, even the 9th is in doubt and in...peril! What else has left to demolish, pulverize, exterminate..?
Dear "Doctor" with your statements, assertions, assumptions and so on, you "paint" the bleak future of this unique form of Music. Fortunately, it's obvious you don't know how to approach Classical Music, at least in musical terms. So, any thing you state, it makes "perfect...(non)sense" to me...
Parla
Thu, Nov 10 2011, 10:28PM
#3
RE: Ode to joy - pull the other one Beethoven.
While I dislike the tone of the originial post I do agree with the general point that the last movement in Beethoven's 9th is the weakest of the 4. The first 3 movements are absolutely divine and signature of a supreme composer who had lost his hearing and thus depended entirely upon his imagination. They are simply outstanding! The 4th in comparison falls off. Beethoven himself wasn't happy with it, and I can see why.
Fri, Nov 11 2011, 12:56AM
#4
RE: Ode to joy - pull the other one Beethoven.
So, tell me you doubters, is the finale of the ninth better than anything written in the previous century and if it is not cite some examples.
And don't quote works of Mozart .Light music with its hints of darkness (Ooh, listen to this, I'm a serious composer!).
Incidentally, I thought that Beethoven removed the title page of the Eroica in disgust when the Napoleon fiend crowned himself Emperor thus making it a paen to freedom not slavery!
Fri, Nov 11 2011, 1:12AM
#5
RE: Ode to joy - pull the other one Beethoven.
Ganymede, on what evidence do you state that Beethoven wasn't happy with the finale of the 9th? For me, and I thought he thought so too, it's the crowning glory of his symphonic achievement. Its construction isn't beyond criticism, I admit, notably the amateur dramatics at the start, but musically it's sublime. The theme originally intended for the finale of the 9th, before he decided to make it choral, is now that of the finale of the A minor quartet, Op 132. You can judge for yourself if Beethoven's second thoughts were for the better or not, according to your taste. However, since Beethoven's completed works were generally the result of umpteenth thoughts, I think we can take it that what he published was how he wanted it to be.
Fri, Nov 11 2011, 7:46AM
#6
RE: Ode to joy - pull the other one Beethoven.
Why are 'Artists' so political naive! It's the same in the pop world, listen to how the various young un-educated popsters try and preach about 'third world poverty' ! Bono. Mr Coldplay, that Irish guy, what was his name, Bob Geldof, ''Send me a pound and I'll save the world''. And what did Madonna say at that strange event ''If you want to save the planet say yeah, say yeah yeah''. Leave politics to the politicains, you wouldn't want to hear music composed by Gordon Brown would you! so why do 'Artists' think they have any thing to say of political importance. ''Here's a kiss for all the world'', you sound just like Madonna, Beethoven. (Ok, not 'his words' but he underlined them in music)
Fri, Nov 11 2011, 8:55AM
#7
RE: Ode to joy - pull the other one Beethoven.
I'm beginning to think he gets some kind of kick out of provoking a reaction to this clap-trap.
Such hatred. And on a music forum! Strange, disturbing.
Vic.
Fri, Nov 11 2011, 9:20AM
#8
RE: Ode to joy - pull the other one Beethoven.
Could that be, Doc Brod, because there's little or no joy in your life and because you clearly don't have much love for people. What a boring little snob you are.
Fri, Nov 11 2011, 10:23AM
#9
RE: Ode to joy - pull the other one Beethoven.
And that's giving him the benefit of the doubt.
I prescribe a continuous diet of BBC-only listening and viewing. Perhaps it will get him committed.
Vic.
Fri, Nov 11 2011, 3:32PM
#10
RE: Ode to joy - pull the other one Beethoven.
I'm beginning to think he gets some kind of kick out of provoking a reaction to this clap-trap.
Vic.
Vic, I've invariably enjoyed your contributions to this forum and I'm sure that feeling is widely shared. I've also many times admired you for your forebearance, so I hope you don't take the following too personally; you can't really have taken this long to come to the above conclusion, can you?
JKH
JKH
Sun, Dec 11 2011, 5:00PM
#11
RE: Ode to joy - pull the other one Beethoven.
What is the point of putting Beethoven and Mozart down? They, along with many others wrote great music. Is this the reason for these forums? I don't thinks so. I know, free speech but, it is still snob speech also. I realy think that there is so much to write about in classical music that we do not have to pick on each other.
Sun, Dec 11 2011, 9:06PM
#12
RE: Ode to joy - pull the other one Beethoven.
It iss possible to put Beethoven on a lower scale, and to find fault with his works, including the 9th. It's easy to snipe afterwards, but Beethoven wrote this work his way, and I like it. I have a suspicion that in the future, more people will be enjoying Beethoven than anything I might achieve.
I've had the life enhancing chance to sing in it three times. I do not regret this.
Best wishes,
P
Sat, Dec 24 2011, 8:14PM
#13
RE: Ode to joy - pull the other one Beethoven.
It is a beautiful work, so beautiful, but it has to be directed and sung well. We had to wait a long time for a symphony that comes close to it, maybe we are still waiting.
Fri, Dec 30 2011, 12:08AM
#14
RE: Ode to joy - pull the other one Beethoven.
No doubt sacrilege but I don't think the ninth is Beethoven's greatest symphony. I prefer the 5th, 7th, 4th and some others. I still think the greatest ever Beethoven symphony recording is Toscanini's NYPSO 7th from the 1930s which I first played as a child on our original 78s. Perhaps I've heard the finale of the 9th too many times in connexion with Euro affairs but as a choral piece I find the finale melody a bit banal and prefer the Choral Fantasy. The slow movement though is the best part of the 9th and is very moving if not played too fast.
Fri, Dec 30 2011, 1:28AM
#15
RE: Ode to joy - pull the other one Beethoven.
Of course, as long as it's your perception, 33lp, that' the way it is for you, but, I haven't found a musician, professional or scholar to claim that the 4th, despite how delightful and flowing might be, can even be compared with the scale and musical depth of the 9th or that the Choral Fantasy is a greater work compared to the choral finale of the 9th.
The 7th is a very original work, since, maybe for the first time, rhythm becomes the driving force of a classic Symphony. But is this enough to make it greater than Ninth (of which the amazing Scherzo is also a great work on rhythm)? The 5th is the closest, possibly, to Ninth (as far as the originality and the multifold texture, but not the scale). The 3rd is very close to scale, but not to the actual substance and achievement, while the 6th's Finale is, most probably, one of the very best and unique movements he ever composed, beyond even the Symphonies (for me it's the most beloved movement of all Beethoven along with the finale of the Piano Sonata, op. 90 in e-minor).
However, the Ninth is a Symphony without precedent and with almost no sequel (Mahler's desperate efforts with 2nd and 3rd led him to other paths, while the 8th is a little more than a follie de grandeur). Its First movement is the most magnificent and developed Sonata form symphonic movement in his output (along with the however somewhat more cumbersome First movement of his 3rd). The Scherzo is the more original and well developed, equalled in scale with the more traditional one of the 7th. The slow movement is a glorious Variations form movement, far deeper and more substantive and subtle than the ones in the 5th (more straightforward) or the 3rd (equal in scale, but with less nuances and a bit repetitive). The Finale is unique in every way, breaking any possible current rule of the then symphonic structure and construction, while respecting the rules and formulas of composition. As for the main meelody, I fully agree it has been trivialised by the "brains" of the Euro failure, but, even after all this pulverazitation, is it really trivial? I trust it was, from the very start, so good, that everyone wanted to make it his/her own. It's a glorious melody (not a very frequent feature of Beethoven) magnificently developed and amazingly resolved.
Therefore, it's up to all of you to categorise the Ninth as you like it, but, you should not neglect it is a unique and most glorious Symphony, fully worthy of the most sublime last String Quartets, the amazing late Piano Sonatas and the out of this world Missa Solemnis, which made Beethoven unrivalled and unparalleled.
Parla
People today seem to think that cynicism is sophisticated and chic. Beethoven should be applauded for his message of the brotherhood of man. Classical music is universal in spirit because it addresses the core of our humanity. Dr. Brodsky, your self important, negative rants on these forums is becoming tiresome.