Sibelius symhony no.2 and no.5
Sat, Oct 20 2012, 11:56PM
#2
RE: Sibelius symhony no.2 and no.5
My post was not meant as a debate on performances but to show the futile issue of searching for a sort of definitive ones.
Since, however, you raised few more issues, just kindly note:
- If you have the Ashkenazy cycle on Exton (in SACD), keep it. Whenever you managed to get a proper equipment, you may never believe you knew these recordings.
- This "Bernstein put his ego in front of the composer" is such a cliche from those who either never experience to see him "live" and listen to his lectures on various composers' works or of those who refuse to listen without any prejudice. You should not forget that the Beethoven put himself in front of his works, when he conducted them. Mahler too. Likewise Wagner, Stravinsky and many more.
I don't see from where you take for granted that the 2nd's second movement "should sound austere and tense, yet with reserved emotionality". Is it written in the score?
If we go to soloists, there we are: Richter, Horowitz, Michelangeli, Pollini, Argerich, Gould, Kremer, Kogan, Milstein, Rostropovich, Tortelier, Fournier and so many more. However, I don't think we can dismiss any of them, because their ego is a trademark of their performances. Gould's Bach means Gould playing Bach and not Bach played by Gould! So...
Anything is valid (and always quite interesting to explore) as long as we deal with great artists.
Parla
Sun, Oct 21 2012, 3:11AM
#3
RE: Sibelius symhony no.2 and no.5
I'm not much of a Sibelius fan, but I like his vc and some other works (a few tone poems, the string quartet.....). When it comes to his symphonies I prefer the 4th: austere, sober and direct (written when he became aware of a throat cancer if I mistake not). And of course sometimes I listen w/ pleasure the 1st, 2nd and 5th.
Regarding recordings, there's not much to add after Barbirolli, Davis, Bernstein, Karajan (even w/ BPO) and Vanska (Lahti SO: good 5ths indeed, but a cycle somewhat overrated imo).... being mentioned.
Yes, Bernstein's rubato can be a bit too much for some, you may prefer a skimmed version and the'll be no problem w/ that, but one can never say that Bernstein's approach doesn't fit those works. Listen to his 1st and 2nd w/ VPO and there's no avoiding the thrill. Cheap? Maybe. Blame on the conductor? Definitely not.
As to the melodramatic appeal, so well noticed in Tchaikovsky's symphonies, being or not being present in some of those written by Sibelius, I tend to agree w/ the Finnish composer: "I know that I have much in common with that man (Tchaikovsky) - but nothing can be done about that".
Sun, Oct 21 2012, 5:26PM
#4
RE: Sibelius symhony no.2 and no.5
If you want both symphonies (# 2 & 5) on one CD, I would go for Celibidache (Swedish Radio Symphony Orchestra, DG), or Karajan (Philharmonia, EMI). But for # 2 alone, Monteux (LSO), Barbirolli (Chesky label), AND Szell (Live in Tokyo, 1970) are the THE performances.
Best, H.
Sun, Oct 21 2012, 7:10PM
#5
RE: Sibelius symhony no.2 and no.5
This "Bernstein put his ego in front of the composer" is such a cliche from those who either never experience to see him "live" and listen to his lectures on various composers' works or of those who refuse to listen without any prejudice. You should not forget that the Beethoven put himself in front of his works, when he conducted them. Mahler too.
Parla
Bernstein's lectures on various composers or Bernstein 'live' is not really the point, is it. We are dealing with recorded music. and Beethoven (or Mahler) is surely allowed to put himself in front of his own works, it's called authenticity. As opposed to Bernstein 'putting on a show with a little bit of smaltz'.
Mon, Oct 22 2012, 12:25AM
#6
RE: Sibelius symhony no.2 and no.5
No, Sid, when you know how Bernstein performed "live" (actually all his recordings for DG are from live performances, as the fine label claims), you may understand why he sounds as he does on the "recorded music".
What I mentioned about the composers meant to show that even the composers "grow" against their own works. I don't hold my breath, however, as for whether, because of their authority to do so, we may accept with enthusiasm an "eccentric" performance of the "Rite" conducted by Stravinsky himself.
In any case, Bernstein, as with all conductors or other performers, is not for everyone, but he has convinced and thrilled plenty and, most definitely, those who happen to have experienced his live performances and to get to know a bit of his extraordinary musical gifted personality.
Parla
Mon, Oct 22 2012, 8:40AM
#7
RE: Sibelius symhony no.2 and no.5
Agreed. Most composers who performed their own works show that these works can grow after they have been completed. They gain life from performance and can have a life away from the composer. When a composer puts his pen down he is finished with the work, he can change it agian in performance and then change what he has written but he is usually best leaving it alone and continuing with another work. The problem with Berstein is that although his practises can sound wonderful on one 'live' hearing, they can often sound wilful and distasteful on repeated listening. However he is free to adapt as he chooses, I am free to criticise his performances and you are free to defend him. In this way music becomes alive and important.
Mon, Oct 22 2012, 11:57AM
#8
RE: Sibelius symhony no.2 and no.5
Hi Parla,
I'm completely with you as far as Bernstein is concerned. Each occasion on which I saw him 'live' was truly memorable and I cherish many of his recordings, including his late Vienna recordings of Sibelius (but probably I wouldn't choose these rather extreme performances as an example to convince someone of Bernstein's greatness).
Sid does raise an interesting point though (as so often) when he writes that "they [Bernstein's recordings] can often sound wilful and distasteful on repeated listening." It all depends on what is meant by repeated listening. This raises an interesting point concerning recordings. Parla, you attend as many concerts as anyone, I'm sure, yet how many times have you heard Sibelius 5 in your life, live, or Beethoven's 9th, or Bach's Mass in B minor (say). For me, it's no more than 3 or 4 for any of these. And in the time of these composers how many performances were given in total in their lifetimes? Until hi-fi came along the idea of the sort of repeated listening that Sid speaks of was unimaginable, and I well remember the uproar when Edward Greenfield, in the Gramophone, described a record of Beethoven's 9th as being 'perfect for everyday listening'.
Should recordings of great masterpieces be made for 'repeated listening' or for special occasions? Whatever your (or anyone's) answer, I'm sure that anticipation of repeated listening has affected the way performers record the great classics. For better or for worse?
Chris
Sun, Oct 28 2012, 10:29AM
#9
RE: Sibelius symhony no.2 and no.5
Parla claimed that all Bernstein recordings made for DG were live.This was not the case,it is true that near the end of his life he decided to record only 'live',but he made many studio recordings for DG. Apologize for being pedantic,but might as well be accurate.
Can use one of Bernstein's DG studio recordings to aim a kick - His version of The Enigma Variations is all about Leonard and very little about Elgar,as for Nimrod....oh dear.
My view is that his best days were when he was at the helm of the New York Phil.when his conducting style had not grown so mannered.He recorded the complete set of Sibelius symphonies during this period.Unfortunately this and all the other recordings at this time (1960s) was 'blessed' with poor CBS sonics.
Sun, Oct 28 2012, 11:19AM
#10
RE: Sibelius symhony no.2 and no.5
Can use one of Bernstein's DG studio recordings to aim a kick - His version of The Enigma Variations is all about Leonard and very little about Elgar,as for Nimrod....oh dear.
A very dear friend of mine, no longer with us, was a huge Bernstein fan. I used to use that Enigma recording to redress the balance (including the somnolent Nimrod) and even his enthusiasm was rather subdued whenever I mentioned or played it.
Sun, Oct 28 2012, 2:15PM
#11
RE: Sibelius symhony no.2 and no.5
I'm not much of a Sibelius fan, but I like his vc and some other works (a few tone poems, the string quartet.....)
I love Sibelius but that last mentioned work is a closed book to me. I have been working hard at it lately so that I now get more out of the first movement (i.e. the first two movements) and the finale, but the adagio still offers nothing. I have recordings by the Fitzwilliam and the speedier Emersons.
Sun, Oct 28 2012, 5:40PM
#12
RE: Sibelius symhony no.2 and no.5
History Man, you may be right as for the latest recordings before Lenny passed away. He did some studio recordings, but a great bulk of the most well known in the DG years (e.g. Beethoven's or Mozart's or Brahms' recordings) were served as "live".
The "Enigma" recording cannot eclipse all the other significant contributions of Bernstein in the recording history. How many failures can we count in any single conductor, which, however, do not (and cannot) mar their overal picture?
BR, if you cannot stand Sibelius' String Quartet in d minor, known as "Voces Intimae", you're missing something quite significant in the opus of the composer. It constitutes his (almost) only masterpiece in the field of Chamber Music. And it is a true masterwork, in any possible way.
There is a good number of brilliant recordings that might help you to "get more out of the First Movement":
-The Dante Quartet, on Hyperion. An intimate and rather more refined recording.
-The Tetzlaff Quartet, on Avi-music. Absolutely thrilling, full of vitality and vigour.
-The Coull Quartet, on Somm (it also offers the Piano Quintet in g minor with the superb Martin Roscoe, on Piano. This is his second but less significant masterpiece). Very delightful performances and a fine recording.
-The Henschel Quartet, in a very impressive SACD recording, on NEOS, along with Janacec's String Quartet No. 1 and Shulhoff's No.1 as well.
-The superb Kocian Quartet, in a most brilliant recording on Praga. My most favourite recording and a demonstration quality recording on SACD.
-The Tempera Quartet, on BIS. Eventually, a Finnish approach to a Finnish masterwork. A sure thing.
I hope this variety of recordings might help you to discover his very first and almost unique masterpiece of Sibelius in Chamber Music.
Parla
Sun, Oct 28 2012, 7:15PM
#13
RE: Sibelius symhony no.2 and no.5
As with all things in life it's about timing.
When Bernstein took over from Mitropoulos as chief conductor of the New York Philharmonic he had the musical world at his feet.The only problem,he knew it.
He made many great recordings,you name it,he did it.Beethoven,Brahms,Sibelius,Nielsen,the list is endless.The one big drawback,not Bernstein's fault, was the crap recorded sound.
Then he went too DG,not that great but much better sonics then CBS.The ego by this time had taken over.It was too late.All conductors with a massive ego fall into the same trap - They slow everything down thinking it adds weight and meaning to the interpretation.
Berstein did make one recording for Decca.Shame he did not do more (before the ego spoilt everything).
Sun, Oct 28 2012, 10:00PM
#14
RE: Sibelius symhony no.2 and no.5
All conductors with a massive ego fall into the same trap - They slow everything down thinking it adds weight and meaning to the interpretation.
Listening to Bernstein's "Nimrod" on youtube as we speak - and holy moley. It's like my experiments with my grandpa's old turntable as a kid - which allowed LP's to be played on 16 rpm... (and on 45 too, chipmunks territory.)
Not only it's Elgar on ritalin, but the complete architecture of the piece is destroyed. The huge build-up to the climax, so breathtakingly beautiful in the Boult and Barbirolli versions is completely ineffective here.
In fact, it clearly reminds me wat B. did with the Sibelius 2nd, and specially its slow movement, of which I spoke before. Parla may like it, but it's the first cd I ever tried to return to the store. They didn't take it back, because I was so honest to say it was only the performance that pissed me off, not any mechanical defect (if I had blamed it on being scratched or something like that, I could have ended up with a fresh copy of the same wretched thing...) So I still own it, sitting next to Barbirolli on my shelf. A rather unworthy spot, methinks.
Like History Man says, many big-ego conductors fall for this speed trap (sorry for the pun). "I'm the greatest, so I can make this work, even if it's the most extreme thing that anyone ever tried." That kind of attitude.
Of course, conductors who normally can't be accused of putting their ego in front of everything fall for it as well. Haitink's Mahler's 5th adagietto at 15 minutes, while it should be at 8 minutes, ideally (Mengelberg did it in 7, and he heard it from Mahler himself). Or Klemperer getting sometimes trapped in extremes of fast and (mostly) slow near the end of his career.
And it's worth mentioning other forms of "big-ego" excesses too. Karajan's strings fetish that made his later recordings sound like Mantovani, the 3 "M's" (Maazel, Muti and Mehta) with their own horrid mannerisms that make me hate most of their records...
Sun, Oct 28 2012, 11:39PM
#15
RE: Sibelius symhony no.2 and no.5
Of course, it's your prerogative to appreciate, enjoy whatever you get out of the recordings you have on Bernstein and any other conductor with excessive ego (what about Celibidache, the slowest of all, at least in all his EMI recordings).
However, I judge him from his live performances I happened to be present in the 70s and 80s, when his ego was at his prime. Each time, he received numerous times standing ovation, the audience in Vienna and in other parts in Europe adored him as well as the members of at least the VPO and IPO.
His concerts I attended are the most vivid experiences a conductor could provide to me. He conducted a most memorable Beethoven's 5th and the String Quartet in c-sharp minor, op.131 (in the Mitropoulos arrangement for the String Orchestra) with VPO in mid-70s.
Incidentally, Karajan's Strings of the BPO sounded as good as strings should be. Unfortunately, very few conductors could achieve such a refinement from an orchestra as Karajan managed from BPO, particularly in his mature days. I trust Mantovani would have recieved your comment, 50m, as a major compliment. As for Maazel and Muti, I have seen them "live" and they were superb even in their "mannerisms". Some of their recordings reflect that too (check Maazel's Bruckner, for instance and Muti's Le Nozze di Figaro).
Parla
(i) To me the problem with Bernstein is that while Davis' eccentrics always stem from the possibities offered by the score itself, Bernstein's deviations are strictly those of conductor who tends to put his own ego in front of the composer.
(ii) After all, Sibelius is no Tchaikowsky, even if he learned a lot from the Russian composer and the 1st and 2nd symphony clearly show his influence.
(i) arrrh, the essence of Bernstein.
(ii) and thank god for that. One drama queen is quite enough.