The perfect Beethoven Symphony Cycle
Thu, Feb 21 2013, 4:59PM
#2
RE: The perfect Beethoven Symphony Cycle
Here goes my pick:
No. 1: Bohm/VPO
No. 2: Thielemann/VPO
No. 3: Bohm/VPO
No. 4: Karajan/BPO (1962 version)
No. 5: Furtwangler/VPO
No. 6: Haitink/LSO
No. 7: Kleiber/VPO
No. 8: Chailly/GWO
No. 9: Bernstein/VPO
Fri, Feb 22 2013, 2:11PM
#3
Beethoven Symphony Cycle
Ok, sorry for the "minor incidents", it was meant to be ironical, but didn't come out right as a consequence of my limited English.
The "missing people club" is actually larger: what about Eugen Jochum?? And Cantelli, De Sabata, Knappertsbusch, Hermann Scherchen, ... Pierre Boulez (unforgettable Fifth and Seventh), Giulini, Barenboim, Sawallisch?
Now, everything in these discussions is subjective and personal, no question. Even when it is put in a declaratory style as I did. Nevertheless, this doesn't mean that one wouldn'like to share and discuss hi/her opinions with other music lovers. Anyhow, here is my pick:
1. Bruno Walter
2. Bruno Walter
3. Furtwängler (1944 VPO or 1952 BPO; strong alternative: Klemperer, any version, weak alternative Karajan 1962)
4. Furtwängler/BPO
5. Furtwängler/VPO (his last studio recording, I believe 1954; alternatives: Klemperer, any version, or Karajan 1962)
6. Bruno Walter (any version; alternatives: Toscanini, Klemperer, Furtwängler)
7. Furtwängler/VPO (the last studio recording; very strong alternative: Bruno Walter NYP 1947, weak alternative Toscanini)
8. Bruno Walter (alternatives: Furtwängler, Toscanini)
9. Furtwängler (1954 Luzern or 1951 Bayreuth; ** in my opinion **, absolutely no alternatives)
Fri, Feb 22 2013, 4:15PM
#4
RE: The perfect Beethoven Symphony Cycle
This thread deals with a recurring subject showing interesting remarks in this iteration.
Furtwangler is certainly one of the great conductors in this repertoire but he's far from being alone imo, Lucio. I prefer his 9th from Lucerne (1954) to the Bayreuth one, however I tend to prefer Fricsay's superb reading (1957). His 6th w/ VPO (EMI) is outstanding and as to the coupling 5th & 7th, I prefer the war (1943) recordings w/ BPO.
Some people like the readings of Gardiner, Norrington, Harnoncourt.....but I feel them interesting only, they highlight some points to the detriment of the whole message. Is a Beethoven à la Haydn feasible? I don't think so.
Cluytens was deservedly brought to the list, but among French conductors the best Beethovenian imo is Pierre Monteux who recorded a splendid 3rd w/ RCO (Philips) and an incandescent 7th w/ LSO (Decca).
Reiner was a happy discovery for me, since then I see myself always listening to his 3rd, 5th, 6th and 7th (RCA). He recorded the ninth at the end of his career, I'll try to get this recording soon.
Kleiber family (Father & Son) is always remembered but I think that the son's recordings are a bit overrated.
Imo Karajan is not at his best in this repertoire and from his DG cycles I prefer the one from the 60s where we find a good ninth marred by a detached finale.
An interesting task would be to name the best living Beethovenian. Who that would be? Haitink, Chailly, Abbado, Rattle, Vanska, Thielemann, Zinman.......I don't know most of these recordings so I am not qualified to vote but I have to say that I listened to some good Abbado's recordings.
More forgotten ones besides Scherchen, Giulini, Jochum.....? Beecham, Mravinsky & Van Kempen.
Fri, Feb 22 2013, 11:50PM
#5
RE: The perfect Beethoven Symphony Cycle
Your last comment carries further elements to my conviction that this matter is highly personal and subjective. Several years ago I ran through a large number of conductors in their Beethoven performances. No way that Cluytens, Reiner, Bernstein or even the much-celebrated Szell and many others could convey the same pathos, the same emotions and feelings as these few (Walter, Klemperer and - above all - Furtwängler, but also Toscanini, Karajan and Jochum) did. The former ones always left me with the impression of a fine but superficial reading, unable to unearth all the treasures contained in the score. The same Claudio Abbado, my fellow countryman, despite his alleged continuity with the Furtwängler lesson, leaves me rather cold. All in all, among the contemporaries I would pick Barenboim, but I have to admit to knowing very little of many others. Marriner, Hogwood or Harnoncourt are great conductors, but … in baroque music! Mravinsky offers an unsurpassed Ciaikovsky, but for Beethoven or Brahms I would definitely turn somewhere else.
Sat, Feb 23 2013, 1:03AM
#6
RE: The perfect Beethoven Symphony Cycle
I don't think anyone has mentioned the superb Blomstedt - Dresden State Orchestra cycle that came out many years ago on RCA LPs with the score to all the symphonies. I picked it up used a long time ago but someone had kept the scores. It is now available on Brilliant CDs.
Wed, Mar 27 2013, 2:03PM
#7
RE: The perfect Beethoven Symphony Cycle
Though using only a smallish orchestra, I find Harnoncourt's versions, with one exception, most satisfying: the playing is vigorous and full-blooded and unlike most conductors he brings out the humour (where appropriate). Harnoncourt is at the opposite extreme to Karajan. I have never been able to take his streamlined approach with all the accents ironed out. The only disappointment is the 9th where the lack of a large orchestra makes itself felt under Harnoncourt's rather swift and superficial direction. This is made worse by a choir which doesn't sound very involved and second-class soloists.
For the 9th I stand by Solti's first Chicago version.
Tue, Apr 16 2013, 10:44PM
#8
RE: The perfect Beethoven Symphony Cycle
Hello everyone!
As I don't feel the urge to look for another medium to collect and listen to classical music than the good old lp record, my field of view may be narrow and somehow old fashioned for which I may be too young as well - but looking up to my dad's record collection was and still is one of the highlights of my early childhood. so I probably didn't dig as deep into the subject as one could have, but I quite enjoy things the way they are. nevertheless I own eleven complete beethoven cycles with several additions here and there. to me they seem as a good starting point. that's why I'd love to give it a shot and add my first and incomplete list (there still wait four beethoven symphonies for me to be explored):
3rd: Klemperer & Philharmonia (from his cycle and even if I'm not a true Klemperer's fan because of his slow tempi this is the only Eroica that gets me)
5th: Kleiber jun./VPO and/or Karajan/BPO from the second cycle. The latter one is one of my first memories listening to classical music as a child
6th: Karajan/BPO (2nd cycle) and/or Wand/NDR SO. these two are completly different, but I enjoy them both at their times.
7th: Kleiber/VPO and not as often: Bernstein/NYPO
The last one to me is a 'no-brainer':
9th: Bernstein/VPO - hands down. (up to this day I bought and listened to 28 different interpretations and only Schuricht/O.d.l.S.d.C.d.C.Paris came to what some might call 'close')
as I'm not a native speaker I like to apologize for my poor English.
Thu, Apr 25 2013, 4:52AM
#9
RE: The perfect Beethoven Symphony Cycle
I perceive Leonard Bernstein as a media persona first and foremost. Growing up here in the states, Leonard Bernstein dominated the airwaves in the way that Yo Yo Ma and Lang Lang do today. But the point that I wanted to make is that it hasn't been until recently that a number of recordings from behind the 'Iron Courtain' are finally being released to us here in the west. I would assume that Ukraine, Hungary, Poland, had excelllent orchestras and conductors who could also do justice to the Viennese repertoire. Any insights with respect to recordings by the USSR, etc...?
Thu, Apr 25 2013, 10:39PM
#10
RE: The perfect Beethoven Symphony Cycle
Yes, there is one! Try to listen Radio Kamer Filharmonie conducted by Philille Herreweghe performed in Concertgebouw http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=6w-oEQ_QqGA. I've never hear better performance of Symphony no. 6 "Pastoral"
This is not that far away from heven. I try to compare many recordings. Not even close!
Fri, Apr 26 2013, 1:38AM
#11
RE: The perfect Beethoven Symphony Cycle
Russian Beethoven:
Apart from a few one-offs, there is a Fedoseyev cycle (spelled "Fedosseyev" on the cover), and Pletnev's more recent go. Mravinsky recorded a partial cycle - 1 and 3-7 - available in the West only patchily.
(I also have a mixed cycle by obscure conductors and the Georgian SIMI orchestra released through bargain label Prism Classics.)
Fri, Apr 26 2013, 2:03AM
#12
RE: The perfect Beethoven Symphony Cycle
I think that in this theme its neccesary to distinguish between technical or academic perfection and emotion, and in that sense if you are looking for "perfection" there is Haitink, Bôhm, Colin Davis or Hans Schmidt-Isserstedts integrals, but if -against that- you are looking for drama, tragedy, in other words....emotion, you need to search in other way. I think that the appropiate is to seek a balance between both elements, and in that sense I think that Josef Krips-London (an integral inexplicably forgotten here!)is for my taste the most regular of all, but also are the Chicago Orch-Fritz Reiner recordings (incomplete in all case), Schuricht-Paris Conservatory Orchestra, Leibowitz-Royal Philharmonic Orch, Leinsdorf-Boston, etc. In conclusion, the ideal is to find an integral that combines adecuately perfection and emotion, and I think that Barenboims, Bernsteins, Harnoncourts versions, for example, doesnt meets that requirements adecuately. Excuse my english, please. Best regards oscar.olavarria
Fri, Apr 26 2013, 8:01AM
#13
RE: The perfect Beethoven Symphony Cycle
The very fine German label Tacet has released an intriguing and very well recorded (in SACD) cycle with the Polish Chamber Philharmonique Orchestra under the baton of a conductor called Wojciech Rajski. For those who dare...it may be worth exploring.
Parla
Sat, Apr 27 2013, 1:41AM
#14
RE: The perfect Beethoven Symphony Cycle
and in your opinion that would be the perfect Beethoven symphonies cycle, dear Parla??, well...I think that at least effectively it could better than Barenboims or Thielemann cycles! oscar.olavarria
Sat, Apr 27 2013, 3:05AM
#15
RE: The perfect Beethoven Symphony Cycle
I never meant or even implied that, dear Oscar, but I tend to like the way you think.
I just mentioned this recording as the one recently available and, possibly, worth exploring as something different coming from the "Eastern" Europe orchestras and very well recorded.
Parla
Fair enough, Lucio. The way you wrote your post seemed as someone who brought us the light in the darkness we dwell. Particularly, this "minor incidents" was spectacular.
By the way, it is not only Walter who is missing from the suggestions for the "best". Quite a few others, like Ormandy or Schuricht for instance, are not there.
Anyway, welcome once more.
Parla