Best time in history to be a classical music listener

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A minor key to major success.

For example, f-sharp minor had its very special role to play for Haydn and, to a considerable degree, for Beethoven, even for Mozart.

Parla

rulers and the ruled

Jane,

I intended to say exactly that. You are asking him to deliver because you do not think it is possible.

Dismissing...

Jane, the score of any work of Classical Music is written based on a sort of grammar and syntax, known to "some" as "music theory", which is full of rules and regulations already codified, so that they can be used. Musicians and particularly composers have to use them, not strictly, but as a basic vocabulary and for structuring/forming what they have to musically say.

If the composer uses this "technical" methods, tools and ways to write his work, the listener may be in a position to identify whether the work is well-written (as in a work of literature), rich in "vocabulary", innovative in developing the rules at hand or even more furthering up and so on.

So, unless you dismiss the musical theory, the rules of how to use the chosen key, how to modulate, how to follow the rules of Sonata Form (already mentioned by me in 3-4 posts only in this thread and you keep ignoring them as rules) etc., then, you might be right in your claims. However, how can you explaine the usual expression a well-written Fugue, an excellent tonal thematic relation, a brilliant coda and so on.

Parla

 

socratesgwr wrote:

socratesgwr wrote:

Jane,

I intended to say exactly that. You are asking him to deliver because you do not think it is possible.

Oh, I see. Sorry!

Show me the Money!

parla wrote:

Jane, the score of any work of Classical Music is written based on a sort of grammar and syntax, known to "some" as "music theory", which is full of rules and regulations already codified, so that they can be used. Musicians and particularly composers have to use them, not strictly, but as a basic vocabulary and for structuring/forming what they have to musically say.

If the composer uses this "technical" methods, tools and ways to write his work, the listener may be in a position to identify whether the work is well-written (as in a work of literature), rich in "vocabulary", innovative in developing the rules at hand or even more furthering up and so on.

So, unless you dismiss the musical theory, the rules of how to use the chosen key, how to modulate, how to follow the rules of Sonata Form (already mentioned by me in 3-4 posts only in this thread and you keep ignoring them as rules) etc.,...

My last word on this........we are clearly not getting anywhere.

I am not ignoring your posts. Rather, you have refused to STATE A RULE. Referring, in a rather general way, to the nature of sonata form etc is not the same things as STATING A RULE. You have to say, "Here is one rule by which we can evaluate a work of art:...................." - then fill in the gap. If, for instance, someone said "What are the rules by which we judge a performance of gymnastics?", I could say, "Well, one rule is that the participant must have their legs together when they reach the top of a handstand." Accordingly, anyone who fails to do that will be marked down. You need to do the same.

I know you won't do this, of course, because you cannot. To do so would reveal, once and for all, the absurdity and utter incoherence of your ridiculous position.

Of course it cannot be done.

Of course it cannot be done. Find one rule why both Bach and Miles Davis were musical geniuses. It is impossible, and a waste of time. On the other hand, it is interesting to study historically why the social and cultural position of Miles Davis' musical production and the consumption of his music were so radically different from the conditions in Bach's time.

Willem

Perhaps, it has already been done.

You might not call it a "rule", but Bach is considered a genius because exactly he created, perfected, consolidated the rules (counterpoint, harmony, form of Fugue etc.) upon which most of the music theory is based upon and anyone who wishes to learn, write or perfrom Classical Music is to study, research, follow etc.

For Miles Davis, I cannot tell. Maybe you have to address the issue to another (jazz) forum.

Parla

Money can't buy...

You still have to show me your money in answering my post #60 (particularly the first paragraph).

In doing so, my money might not be needed...

In any case, to help you quench your thirst about "my money", take this tip: I have not referred, "in a rather general way, to the nature of sonata form" but specifically to the rules of Sonata Form, which are used by the scholar, the listener, the professionals, the experts as a reference standard to identify how the composer used it brilliantly or less etc. (thus the example of Haydn's Sonata in A-flat). Not the other way round, i.e. it is not how strictly the rules of the Sonata Form, or the Variations or the Rondo (or Sonata-Rondo) etc. have been applied as a "measure" of success or failure of the work in question but how the composer observed, used, enhanced, enriched etc. the rules of the Sonata Form. That's why I used in my initial (on this subject) post the phrase that the rules define the value of the work and not that they help us judge the work. Schoenberg had to set and well articulate the new rules of the atonal music, so that his works could be properly appreciated, since with the then existing rules his music would not make any sense, see no value. (Here, we are talking about the technical/artistic value of the work and not the total/overall one, where one may add his/her personal emotional value judgement, social and other extra-musical elements).

Parla

 

rules for establishing rules

This strand started off with observations about all kinds of music and that much surrounds us, but that poor old classical is having a hard time against popular music. We seem to have lost our way in a debate whether there are rules or not without referring to the musical theory taught at the conservatories where our musicians and conductors are educated.

Let us agree that there are many kinds of music. These many kinds of music can be identified by their distinctive rythms, melodies, harmonies and tonalities.  All music has these, although as individuals we may express preferences for the traditional as opposed to the modern music.

It is harmony and harmonic structures which are important in identifying different forms of music as they developed historically, and this is perhaps where rules play a role.

Classical music in western societies developed in the period roughly 1550-1900, and is commonly known as the 'common practice period' which means that it was based on western staff notation = rules and conventions about pitch, tempo, meter and rythms. Such rules and conventions do not apply to non-westen classical music, folk, jazz and pop, but this does not mean that they do not have rules and conventions, although they may be less formal as witnessed in improvization in jazz. Miles Davies and the birth of the cool broke with and changed the rules and conventions associated with trad. jazz and be-bop. 

Bach did more of the less the same during the his own transitional role in long term development from early and baroque up to 1750, the short period of "classical music" proper between 1750 and 1820, then followed by the romantic period 1820-1910, followed by modernism including the atonal 'school'.

How did rules and conventions develop through these periods, which rules were broken, which innovations took place? Post-romantic modernists thought that traditional rules about tonality had had their day and thus experimented with atonality.

To embrace the original questions posed in this thread it would seem that we have to move beyond the limiting debate about rules within the short 'classical period', and to look at the development of western classical music during the past six hundred years. This also means that we can engage in a conversation about the rules and conventions of different kinds of music, including folk, jazz and pop to name but three, in terms of their distinctive rythms, melodies, harmonies and tonalities.

I can then perhaps express my lack of understanding of techno-music in terms of its ryhtms, melodies, harmonies and tonalities, but also express my appreciation of early music in terms of its ryhtms, melodies, harmonies and tonalities.

As I said Jane, I am just a working-class grammar-school lad who passed the 11-plus. Those were the days when 5% of the age group had the distinct privilege to attend a real university. It was in my hall of residence that I first heard classical music played by the bridge-playing and wine-drinking sons of the well-to-do middle classes. My LPs were Jene Vincent and the Blue Jeans.

any time is a good time.....

any time is a good time..... being in the present means you have both the old and new to enjoy. only benefit these days is you can download right away as you please.... no hunting in shops for days on end....plus there is always some money to be saved on downloads. i got some great tracks at half price at Voucher Codes & Discount Codes - BuzzCouponCodes.com

recently....

music is to be enjoyed anytime, anywhere.....

crazycatlady

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