Conductors abuse of power and abuse of others.

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amof

Statistics on the opinion of something or someone is fact, though it can depend on methods, and it is one of those facts that can easily change over time.

 

 

If the positive and negative views are at 50% each, the fact may be 50%, but how do you assess the reputation? How about 49 vs 51? For two people who disagree on a particular reputation, there may not be a factual basis for either to completely change the view.

Your argument has no bearing

Your argument has no bearing on this. Obviously, there can be marginal cases..........."Reputation" operates much the same as the concept of "popularity". One just assesses the views of enough individuals and you then get your answer. There is nothing "subjective" about it, though there may be disagreement about the precise methods involved etc. 

I think you must be using a

I think you must be using a definition of "subjective" that is not familiar to me........

marginal value

The marginal cases probably suffice as illustration for now - basically, general reputation (let alone artistic reputation) is not necessarily universal.

tjh212 wrote:

tjh212 wrote:

The marginal cases probably suffice as illustration for now - basically, general reputation (let alone artistic reputation) is not necessarily universal.

Yes, but that doesn't make it subjective!!!!!!!! We can, and do, disagree about "objective" matters all the time - such as the height of a mountain or the properties of a sub-atomic particle. But no-one doubts that there are facts here.

When we say that this or that matter is subjective, we really mean that the our judgements are ultimately rooted in states of mind (people often talk about "taste" or "sensation" or "feeling"). That's where the "subjectivity" comes from - not from the possibility of disagreement, which is a common feature in discussions relating to objective matters. 

So, in the case of reputations: my personal view that so and so is not a "nice" person can be called "subjective". But when a statistician come along to assess the "reputation" of that particular person, they aggregate these subjective responses and end up with a matter of fact - since that is just what "reputation" means.

Reputation versus popularity.

Reputation should not be taken on the same basis as popularity. The latter could be easily relied on flawed criteria or, sometimes, no criteria at all. Simply, the "taste, sensation, feeling" (as Jane aptly put it) could be enough. Reputation, however, is based on the artistic value of the work of the composer.

As we have extensively discussed in other threads, in the past, the artistic value can be assessed, identified and established based on the defined qualities of the art concerned (inMusic: harmony, orchestration, form, structure etc.).

Parla

Total value

One needs not necessarily be forced to stand with the statistical aggregate reputation.  It may be just an objective fact, without much
subjective meaning.

Individual taste is not necessarily a flawed criterion.  Ignoring it, may be.

Artistic facts are based on the defined qualities.  Artistic value cannot be absolutely, universally proven.

the abuse of power

Can we remind ourselves that young musicians have, and probably still are, being abused, humiliated and exploited by those with power over their careers while you debate how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

 

I can live without the the films that Harvey Weinsein will no longer make as well as the music that exposed and disgraced conductors should no longer perform.  Some loss to me, but possible protection to those struggling to devote their lives to music without the fear that they might attract the attention of a pathetic dirty old men - no matter how great he is. 

The virtuous abuse of ethics.

So, what do you suggest, dear Vic? Do we have to establish some kind of screening Committee to evaluate the ethics and values of a conductor/artist/composer before and during his/her career?

I, and not only, could not live without the music-making of some of the greatest but "stained" conductors/musicians/composers, if they have been stopped or removed from their position at an early stage, depriving us from their total Opus.

Parla

parla wrote:

parla wrote:

So, what do you suggest, dear Vic? Do we have to establish some kind of screening Committee to evaluate the ethics and values of a conductor/artist/composer before and during his/her career?

I, and not only, could not live without the music-making of some of the greatest but "stained" conductors/musicians/composers, if they have been stopped or removed from their position at an early stage, depriving us from their total Opus.

Parla

 

 

So, what do you suggest, dear Parla? Do we have to establish some kind of screening Committee to evaluate the artistic value of a conductor/artist/composer before and during his/her career?

At what level of excellence are they allowed to humiliate a junior musician. How good must they be before it is ok to rape a woman. How many symphonies before they can get away with murder?

Just saying...

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