Conductors abuse of power and abuse of others.

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Late concerns.

Dear Camaron, did you have these kind of questions and concerns when you did listen to some of you most beloved composers works or some of your favourite interpreters, before these allegations came up?

Now you know about the flaws of some of the great ones, are you going to deprive yourself from listening to their works, recordings, watching their video performances etc.?

(By the way, I never suggested we need any kind of "screening Committee").

Parla

Hey Parla, I will kindly

Hey Parla, I will kindly answer your questions after you've answered mine.

Sense and sensitivity.

Hey Camaron, I have already answered your first paragraph question.

Your second paragraph ones are not my concerns, because they are irrelevant to the artistic value of the work and the composer or the performer. 

From the previous exchanges in this thread, it is understood that we are not going to change our minds about the value of the work of a composer or a conductor/soloist because of his/her behavioural flaws. For the latter, the appropriate Authorities can take over, if and when they actually took place.

Parla

VicJayL wrote: I can live

VicJayL wrote:

I can live without the the films that Harvey Weinsein will no longer make as well as the music that exposed and disgraced conductors should no longer perform.  Some loss to me, but possible protection to those struggling to devote their lives to music without the fear that they might attract the attention of a pathetic dirty old men - no matter how great he is. 

I think this is a non-issue, Vic. Surely, we can all agree that rapists etc ought to be removed from their posts and subjected to criminal proceedings. I don't believe any of us were debating that point. I wasn't anyway.

The interesting question isn't about the films Weinstein was going to make or the symphonies Levine was going to conduct, but rather about the products already in existence. Do we want to continue enjoying these, or do we toss them on the scrapheap? Are we able to set aside our feelings of repugnance for the people involved and appreciate the art on its own terms? (Indeed - should we even attempt this?) I can't for the life of me see that this will have any affect on past or current victims of abuse, so I wouldn't have thought this was an opportunity for mounting a high horse.

One consideration: products in these fields are usually corporate endeavours. It takes hundreds to make a film (sometimes thousands), and hundreds to make an opera. Not to mention the organisations and donors who gave money and support to make them possible in the first place. If we want to boycott products already in existence, we have to remember that we are also doing a possible injustice to the all those people who played no part in the original wrong-doing. 

"I, and not only, could not

"I, and not only, could not live without the music-making of some of the greatest but "stained" conductors/musicians/composers, if they have been stopped or removed from their position at an early stage, depriving us from their total Opus"

 

Well Parla my dear, up there you seem willing to accept a level of impunity for the sake of good art. So my questions are very relevant: I'm asking you what level of impunity you are referring to. Or if not, what exactly are you on about?

 

Jane, I'm sort of surprised at your comment. I would think the interesting point is exactly the movies/recordings/works that might NOT get done? That is where the actual ethical conundrum lies, surely? Because once the offence is committed, and the work of art has been given birth, what exactly is at stake?

if you are speaking about the same 98%

parla,  I think one can be fairly confident that neither Beethoven nor Wagner is on the admired list of most.

camaron wrote: Jane, I'm sort

camaron wrote:

Jane, I'm sort of surprised at your comment. I would think the interesting point is exactly the movies/recordings/works that might NOT get done? That is where the actual ethical conundrum lies, surely? Because once the offence is committed, and the work of art has been given birth, what exactly is at stake?

Well, yes. But surely no sane person would argue that we turn a blind eye to rape etc in order to get a bit more art out of the perpetrator? That's not tenable in any human society. As a result, I don't see that there is much to be said here...........

As to there being nothing at

As to there being nothing at stake - I would agree. But one's feelings can certainly be affected. The original post, which I was responding to, asked:

 

Does knowing that the conductor you admire may be a lecherous creep who uses his position to force players and singers to 'perfprm' in other ways effect the way you hear their music? 

Truth is there is nothing

Truth is there is nothing straightforward: Beethoven's high moral ground which informs much of his music is behind his mistreatment of his nephew too, Wagner's narcissistic megalomania made possible his musical dramas, and Sade wrote his books in jail while paying for his sexual crimes...

camaron wrote:

camaron wrote:

Truth is there is nothing straightforward: Beethoven's high moral ground which informs much of his music is behind his mistreatment of his nephew too, Wagner's narcissistic megalomania made possible his musical dramas, and Sade wrote his books in jail while paying for his sexual crimes...

 

Yes, it is this gap between the exalted intentions of the music and the flawed charatcter of some who compose or play it that is so disappointing. Sadly, an appreciation of Schubert or Bach does not make us better people even as it opens us to the greater, and potentially decent, aspects of our human nature.

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