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Even more, no need for looking for or mentioning any...disappointment about these great "statements" of music.
Thanks Alan and Parla for all the information. I will make good use of it in due course.
I’m now more or less paying Brahms’ chamber music a very long visit. His second piano trio will be coming soon, fear not. I am also in great awe with his third, Op 101 by the way. When I am in the mood for Brahms (and this is happening with an ever increasing frequency) I feel like he could do no wrong.
Very unfortunately cannot read music but would love to hear your suggestions, both of them.
mattewpiano and parla,
“We have to accept the works of past composers as they have been given to us” It is not that “we have to” but more like “we are lucky to have”; respect, love and admiration don’t need to became blind veneration.
"Blind veneration"?..I wonder what is the opposite. Veneration with conditionality?
What I know is that "respect, love and admiration" cannot lead to blind veneration but to conscious and unconditional appreciation.
We would be chasing words here, I believe. I said “blind veneration”, and you say “unconditional appreciation”. That’s another very valid way to put it, and I could have chosen that myself. See that the key here is the world “unconditional”. We both feel great appreciation for -say- Brahms. Mine does not get as far as being unconditional, and I even doubt such adjective can be use with such noun, but more on this maybe later.
My very sincere question to you is: why your appreciation is unconditional or what makes you want it that way?
Hey tijh, I had some laughs trying to work the thingy, but unfortunately my fingers are not that habile. I'll keep trying though, as I feel curious. I'll let you know when and if I get there
Camaron, the "unconditional" stands because, first of all, I recognise the full authority of the composer upon his own work. If his work can get my respect, admiration etc., then my final appreciation cannot be but unconditional. Otherwise (if my appreciation is conditional), in a concealed way, I recognise a sort of authority, in the music-making process, to myself as well. However, the only authority we have, as audience, is to simply identify whether we respect, love, admire etc. the work in question. Nothing else!
I'm not quite sure what either of you mean by these terms but perhaps it has something to do with the way we listen to music new to us and assimilkate it into our personal 'appreciation-bank'.
When I first listen to music by a composer unknown to me, my loyalty, or appreciation, is conditional. For me, that composer has to earn my loyalty. In due course I will decide whether that music is for me or not, and inevitably make some judgement about the quality of the music. In due course my loyalty may become 'unconditional'.
The meaning of unconditional here becomes obvious when I know consider a work new to me by a composer I have come to admire and trust. Now, my listening to the new work starts out with 'unconditional loyalty', which may or may not be sustained to the end of my listening.
Of course this represents an exaggerated summary. There are lots of inermediate states. Incidentally it also relates to performances and performers.
Is that anything to do with what you are discussin?
Well, yes, nothing above was very clear.
What I mean is that there are lots in good classical music to be appreciated… but nothing to be loyal about. Appreciation emanates from the music, loyalty (unconditional or not) does not emanate from the music, it is an extra-musical value you put on it (and not really on the music, to which being loyal does not make sense, but to the composer, or whatever idea you have about that composer).
Since loyalty is not really related to the music, it begs a few questions: why and what’s the point?
I think we're getting a bit lost "in the translation".
I never said (and meant) the term "loyalty". The term "unconditional appreciation" stands. As I explained, if a) I recognise the authority of the composer over his work and b) I have a clear respect, love, admiration etc. for the work in question, the final stage of my appreciation cannot be but "unconditional".
However, in order to see any "contradiction" to my term, let's turn the question and ask: If appreciation is "conditional", which may be these "conditions", i.e. conditional to what?
I actually think we are understanding each other very well parla, it is just that we don’t agree. It is true that I put the word “loyalty” in your mouth, just because I think it is closer to what you mean (if I am allowed to do such thing…). As I said “unconditional appreciation” is not possible. More on this in a bit.
“Conditional appreciation” is indeed possible, and it happens all the time. Your appreciation of some music will be conditional to…. the mood you are in, how awake you are, environmental noise, the quality of the recording, etc, etc….
You have done a very good thing in making your two points (a & b) which comes to show how we are -indeed- talking about the same thing. A- accept authority of composer and B- actual love, appreciation, etc for the music. It is point A which I am obviously questioning.
My question -again- is: what’s the point of this? What do you need A for? Surely not in order to get to B...
As for the impossibility of “unconditional appreciation”. You appreciate what you are listening or you don’t, or you do more or less. Appreciation belongs to the music (B). Incondicional is about the composer, (A). They don’t co-exist together.
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