Music in the Museums

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Mario

tjh212, if I'm not mistaken, I believe the painter in 'Tosca' is named Mario.

 

'I'm not sure if people IN the creative process understand Wagner's decisions on Ring, let alone outside, but perhaps Tolkien might disagree.'

I'm not all that knowledgeable about Wagner and whether he associated with visual artists or whether he was a collector. His pieces are however very painterly and he obviously intensifies drama with noticeable tonal coloration. My understanding is that Brahms was admirer of Wagner for this reason.

Of course concerts can happen anywhere but I believe the context is different between a concert in an abandoned factory warehouse and one in a world class museum. Would you not agree?

goofyfoot

Philoaesthetics

Goofyfoot,

I believe the title (page) is part of the score (as I mentioned about La Mer earlier) and as such the soprano appears to be more central. Also, Mario's "Recondita Armonia" is probably also significant (the second word). Further, one of Puccini's middle names is Maria, not Mario.

For Wagner and abandoned factory, please see below:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyl0o5p2Mns

???

 'I believe the title (page) is part of the score (as I mentioned about La Mer earlier)'

I'm sorry tjh212 but what score, and why does the title page need to be anything, I'm confused. Also, that's great that Puccini had the middle name Maria  though I don't understand the relevance. I never made the claim that his middle nname was Mario or Maria or McDonald for that matter, so please grace me with a bit of clarity. Thanks.

goofyfoot

Thanks

Thanks goofyfoot for your replies.

I was responding to your comment on whether Puccini's score (and with some liberty, the composer himself) is indifferent on Mario Cavaradossi - Aida is not Radames; Otello is not Desdemona; Tristan & Isolde is not Tristan; Tosca is not...Mario (Title is part of the score).

A painter describing "Armonia" (harmony) may also be of note.

Giacomo Maria Callas Puccini is probably not too important. But then there is the Don Jose CARreras KARajan CARmen with Jose van Dam....

Protagonist, Not.

I see your point concerning Mario, that he's not a protagonist so he would receive lesser attention musically. And that would be a pragmatic understanding of an opera role in general nevertheless supporting characters can become identifiable through i.e. motives, double periods or even modest developments. The entire atmosphere which surrounds the libretto often depends on it.

As for 'La Mer', it's very possible that the title was tagged onto the piece after it was written. I'm not suggesting that this is true but rather that it could be true for any programmatic work. However, the imagery involved with 'La Mer' is strong enough that I could formulate an understanding of its visual programmatic intentions without prior knowledge the work or its title. This in some way makes the connection to what I expressed earlier about visual elements within a musical work without it having a particular association to the sea, a thunderstorm on the Russian steppes or a Barbizon landscape oil painting.

goofyfoot

goofyfoot wrote:

goofyfoot wrote:

However, the imagery involved with 'La Mer' is strong enough that I could formulate an understanding of its visual programmatic intentions without prior knowledge the work or its title. This in some way makes the connection to what I expressed earlier about visual elements within a musical work without it having a particular association to the sea, a thunderstorm on the Russian steppes or a Barbizon landscape oil painting.

 

I believe Debussy himself would be impressed if you can guess what his work is without knowing the title! This is an interesting test.

"La Mer" and the "pictures".

Actually, Debussy might be aware that only himself was entitlted to "see" certain aspects of the Sea. Any other listener can create any image he/she wishes. Music cannot be specifically descriptive. Works of great Music can help guide a listener to certain directions, but not to concrete pictures. On the contrary, due to its abstract nature, it can help each listener to create his/her own images, sometimes (if not often) irrelevant to the original idea of the composer.

Parla

Debusea

parla wrote:

Actually, Debussy might be aware that only himself was entitlted to "see" ...On the contrary, due to its abstract nature, it can help each listener to create his/her own images

 

Perhaps Images may be a more appropriate work

Les Images.

Ah, oui...Les Images...et quelles images!..

Parla

 

Debussy's Impression

 

Yes, it matters little how literally I envision La Mer when I hear it. For example, I hear the work and I think of the Black Sea though Debussy thought of the Baltic Sea while composing it. This ambiguity allows poetry in place of common communication. 

goofyfoot

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