Beethoven Bagatelles

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Yes, 33lp, I was referring to

Yes, 33lp, I was referring to the Philips. I haven't heard the Vox. I haven't heard any Brendel Vox, in fact, though I keep reading that it has more "bravura" etc.....

You mention Denis Mathews - as it happens, I used to work with someone whose daughter was taught by him (she was a child prodigy), so I have heard a little bit about him over the years. I am pretty sure he has edited some of my Mozart piano music, too. I haven't heard him play, though I know he was supposed to be very good. I think he toured the world in his youth, playing the "48" in town halls and village meeting places as part of some semi-colonial British Council educational enterprise........

Jane

Jane

This is grossly off-topic, but I know you'll read it here. I tried to join the other forum you recommended, but it's dependent on moderator approval, and I never received a reply to my attempt to join. Any ideas?

Regards

Paul

Sorry to hear that. I assume

Sorry to hear that. I assume it is a simple oversight. They are always hungry for more members over there.........

Try again. I am certain it was just a mistake. 

Partsong (Mark) is a regular contributor over there, so he can probably send the administrator a private message if he reads this.

best wishes

If at first you don't succeed...

Hi PG! Likewise sorry to hear that. I'd echo what Jane is saying and try again as it's probably an oversight. Barry who runs H is very good, and you are only likely to be refused admission if you've got 'form' - ie known for being troublesome. If you try again and nothing happens I can send Barry a PM on there. Just taking a break from there for a few weeks to catch-up on matters musical generally...

Fraz Jo - disapntd. Bn ringin this grl al week. No ansr...looks lke she changed her mnd. O well...Ldwg...

"Bagatelle" in Beethoven?

Going back to the topic, I'm sure the quite interesting definition of the Oxford Dictionary cannot apply as such to the case of Beethoven, Marc. You can check various sources yourself and you will find that, for Beethoven at least, Bagatelle meant a short piece of (piano) music...only. As one pianist and good friend told me: He normally tried to put some brilliant compositional "left-overs" in a cycle of short pieces, particularly in the case of Op.126.

Besides, apart from the three cycles of the known Bagatelles, there are quite a few independent pieces, among them the extremely popular "Fur Elise". I would suggest, once more, to give a shot to Brautigam's SACD on BIS. He includes what might be the most complete set of all the Bagatelles by Beethoven and in the most eloquent performances on Fortepiano, in a superb recording.

All the best!

Parla

Compositional leftovers!

I find myself agreeing with you that sometimes dictionary definitions don't tell the whole story, but I'm sure you would agree Parla that, as we were saying above, Beethoven elevated the form of the bagatelle. These are no mere 'throwaway' pieces; they contain some profundity. To Beethoven, short didn't mean light, if that's what you mean!

Still, I quite like your idea of 'compositional leftovers'. In Italy they make a soup from yesterday's leftovers called Ribolita. Funny how composing and cooking have some things in common - ie creating something worthwhile from a few basic ingredients! 

I'm sure at some point I'll get around to listening to the Bagatelles on fortepiano.

33lp thanks - I think the Schnabel is also on youtube...

Fraz Jo - disapntd. Bn ringin this grl al week. No ansr...looks lke she changed her mnd. O well...Ldwg...

Beethoven's oddments

[quote=parla

Besides, apart from the three cycles of the known Bagatelles, there are quite a few independent pieces, among them the extremely popular "Fur Elise". I would suggest, once more, to give a shot to Brautigam's SACD on BIS. He includes what might be the most complete set of all the Bagatelles by Beethoven and in the most eloquent performances on Fortepiano, in a superb recording.

Parla

[/quote]

 

Further to the above I see that the latest BBC Music Magazine reviews a new CD by Brautigam of Beethoven's miscellany including Fur Elise  "in a new edition by Beethoven scholar Barry Cooper that differs markedly from its familiar form". The only pianist of note though to have recorded most, if not all, of Beethoven's piano output must surely be Brendel in his Vox edition which includes many items he did not re-record for Philips, even down to such items as the variations on Rule Britannia & God Save the King. 

Denis Matthews

Jane wrote

janeeliotgardiner wrote:

You mention Denis Mathews - as it happens, I used to work with someone whose daughter was taught by him (she was a child prodigy), so I have heard a little bit about him over the years. I am pretty sure he has edited some of my Mozart piano music, too. I haven't heard him play, though I know he was supposed to be very good. I think he toured the world in his youth, playing the "48" in town halls and village meeting places as part of some semi-colonial British Council educational enterprise........

 

Jane, your comment got me further interested in Denis Matthews so I looked him up on Wiki and he did indeed produce an edition of Mozart piano sonatas together with Stanley Sadie. He also wrote the Beethoven volume for the Dent Master Musicians series & perhaps relevant to our other current thread "His short book (published by the BBC) on Beethoven's piano sonatas is particularly valuable". Few of his recordings seem to have made it to CD though. The only other disc I have of his, which I played last night is of Mozart concerto K488, a Mozart sonata, a couple of Field nocturnes and Beethoven's Op109. I had quite forgotten about the latter, a  very moving & impressive performance up with the greats mentioned on the other thread.

 

I've also got an old VHS tape somewhere with a Crown Film Unit wartime (or just after) film of him in Beethoven's horn sonata with Dennis Brain and Myra Hess playing the first movement of the Appassionata. He committed suicide in 1988.

 

Regards Nick

33lp wrote:

For some reason the above repeated itself when I edited it. This is as far as I could go in deleting the repeat!

Some clarifications.

Mark, the "idea" of "compositional leftovers" was not exactly mine, if you read my previous post. However, I found it too quite to the point, if we consider that Beethoven wrote enough material till he chose what he wanted for his large scale works. In some cases, he collected his shorter sketches and reworked them so that to present them either as individual pieces or as sets (Op.33, 119, 126).

By the way, in my previous post, I never even implied that these "short pieces" are light. They are Beethoven all the way, but in compact form.

Parla

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