Bernstein - good for Mahler but nothing else.

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RE: Bernstein - good for Mahler but nothing else.

naupilus - Again I agree on Maazel except for two recordings. His Sibelius 1 and 4 on Decca and the Mahler 4th. If anyone needs convincing that the 4th is a great symphonic masterpeice then this recording does it. No whipped cream, no waltzing through a dance, but structure and coolness. However I do fail to understand Tarantino completely, even his early work just seems aimed at the 14 year old market. I would watch his take on 'Bernstein and Karajan fight to the death' though. Both flying through the air arms waving like madmen, roll neck sweaters covered in blood, and the final scene where Karajan with his eyes closed drives the baton through Bernsteins heart while Bernstein rattles on about how Mahler fortold of the end of the world and how his 10th symphony refers to the building of new colonies on Mars in the year 2100. An epic.

RE: Bernstein - good for Mahler but nothing else.

I wonder if many others share my disappointment and concern at the pervading tone of negativity on this forum recently.   Music/composers you dislike/hate; conductors/performers who don't make your grade; inferior interpretations; other poster's comments/views/preferences disparaged.

Just what is the point?   This is music, not politics or philosophy.   Music is for enjoyment, for the betterment of the human condition, to reflect and enhance our humanity, for goodness sake!

Why not focus on what we like, what we find positive, what we recommend? 

If I have strong feelings about the differences between Radu Lupu and Lang Lang (I don't), what possible good does it do point up the perceived deficiencies of the one rather than analyse the qualities of the other?   Other than to vent spleen/frustration, try to establish some sense of superiority, and to denigrate the values or views of others?

There are plenty of composers and musical styles that I don't enjoy but I put it down to a lack of understanding (or something) on my part not to inferiority on theirs.   This because I know there are others who find enjoyment in them and it is not up to me to question their preferences or judgement.

In the end it comes down to tolerance and respect for others. 

A change of tone and emphasis would be most welcome to this reader.

Vic.

 

RE: Bernstein - good for Mahler but nothing else.

Typical liberal, wants the truth. but only if it is the nice truth.

So if Bernstein makes an obvious howler of a performance we should all say, well it is our own fault we don't understand it, well done Mr Bernstein. I think not, that is the kind of liberal BBC thinking that leads to muslim jihad groups gaining hold in foriegn countries, just put your head back in the sand vic, that's the liberal way.

RE: Bernstein - good for Mahler but nothing else.

DrBrodsky wrote:

Typical liberal, wants the truth. but only if it is the nice truth.

So if Bernstein makes an obvious howler of a performance we should all say, well it is our own fault we don't understand it, well done Mr Bernstein. I think not, that is the kind of liberal BBC thinking that leads to muslim jihad groups gaining hold in foriegn countries, just put your head back in the sand vic, that's the liberal way.

 

Your wilful misinterpretation of my point, your disingenuous and prejudiced analogy, and your simple bigotry are beneath contempt sir.

"In the end it comes down to tolerance and respect for others." 

Vic.

RE: Bernstein - good for Mahler but nothing else.

No, Vic. It comes down to what we think is good and what we think is bad. Why we think it is good and why we think it is bad. But then I'm on the Gramophone site, a site for musical criticism. You seem to be on the 'BBC one global world now everybody is equal and we should all just smile at each other liberal diddley do good but only if it means doing nothing etc etc etc' site.

RE: Bernstein - good for Mahler

Yes, I agree with Vic. How disappointing - this discussion has taken a wrong turn.

Discussions about artists and their output are obviously always a personal affair and listeners of classical music will never agree about the particular qualities of any one artist. While there are "objective rights and wrongs" the reaction to music is entirely personal, one artist for the right or wrong reasons will speak to any one of us more than another.

The outset of this discussion - was Bernstein an artist "good" for one composer alone (Mahler) or not is - I think - fairly unanimoulsy answered with a "no". He had a layer of personality which we may not all share, but in the end his contribution as a musician was phenomenal in terms of education (his TV lectures for example) and in terms of pure music recordings. Many of his "middle period" recordings (70s) are very interesting at the very least, bringing out things which one hadn't heard at the time and bringing a new perspective to things. I am no devoted follower of his, but I see his outstanding contribution. His closeness to Mahler undoubtedly roots in his own duality between the roles of composer and conductor, something he could never really divide himself between, much like Mahler. His late Mahler recordings are excellent, no doubt, but so are many others of his recordings. If I now mention any one I know half the forum will fall over me and argue that their favourite musician did that particular work much better, so I'm not going into that.

Let's keep any personal attacks (or other semi-intellectual attempts of categorising people) away from the forum. I read these forums to learn what others think and while I may not share every view I still find it fascinating to read the reactions.

Anyways, that's my penny's worth of contribution...

RE: Bernstein - good for Mahler RE: Bernstein - good for Mahler

 

VicJayL wrote:

This because I know there are others who find enjoyment in them and it is not up to me to question their preferences or judgement.

In the end it comes down to tolerance and respect for others.

Hear hear.


ganymede wrote:

Let's keep any personal attacks (or other semi-intellectual attempts of categorising people) away from the forum. I read these forums to learn what others think and while I may not share every view I still find it fascinating to read the reactions.

Hear hear.


DrBrodsky wrote:

Typical liberal, wants the truth. but only if it is the nice truth. So if Bernstein makes an obvious howler of a performance we should all say, well it is our own fault we don't understand it, well done Mr Bernstein. I think not, that is the kind of liberal BBC thinking that leads to muslim jihad groups gaining hold in foriegn countries, just put your head back in the sand vic, that's the liberal way.

Take more water with it and lie down in a darkened room.

JKH

.

 

JKH

RE: Bernstein - good for Mahler RE: Bernstein - good for Mahler

Bernstein in Mahler - Hear hear.

Bernstein in everything else - Don't hear.

RE: Bernstein - good for Mahler but nothing else.

DrBrodsky wrote:

No, Vic. It comes down to what we think is good and what we think is bad. Why we think it is good and why we think it is bad. But then I'm on the Gramophone site, a site for musical criticism. You seem to be on the 'BBC one global world now everybody is equal and we should all just smile at each other liberal diddley do good but only if it means doing nothing etc etc etc' site.

 

In the field of music criticism there is indeed what is good and what is bad and why this is so.  My point is that discussion of it can be in the context of tolerance and respect for individuals or intolerance and disrespect for individuals.

Vic.

RE: Bernstein - good for Mahler but nothing else.

Yet a few posts ago Vic, I was, in your words ' a simple bigot who was beneath contempt' and on another thread I was ' a nazi'. You don't seem to practise what you preach Vic old chap.

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