Which is the authentic Tchaikovsky??

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RE: Which is the authentic Tchaikovsky??

Mista Donut wrote:

diddle diddle diddle dum dum dum BOOM diddle diddle diddle dum dum dum BOOM.

Precisely... shout... or better even... ROAAAAAAAAAAARRR!

btw Donut will doff my cap to you for Sunday. We did not turn up. My consolation is that it will add an extrs spice to next season.

Naupilus

RE: Which is the authentic Tchaikovsky??

The double champions of Europe ( holding the only two major european trophies at the same time has never been done before ) are used to kicking your butt at Old Trafford.

RE: Which is the authentic Tchaikovsky??

eyeresist wrote:

parla wrote:

Of course, I appreciate as well the more "Classical", sober, western recordings and performances, but Tchaikovsky is a Russian composer, above or after all. Mravisnky managed to combine a bit of the Western refinement in his passionate Russian interpretations. However, some very good Russian conductors can get the core of the matter out of this truly great composer, which the west (or parts of it) seems to see him only superficially.

Just to clarify, Re "Classical" performances of Tchaik, I didn't mean the bland internationalised versions so dominant in the West, but something lighter, spicier, more chamber scale. This is more a theoretical curiosity than something I've actually heard, though as an example Karajan's recordings sound quite classical next to the heavy Rostropovich cycle.

I don't know how "authentic" the 20th c. Russian tradition is in performances of Tchaik. As I recall, Russian orchestras up to mid-late 19th c were still generally under the tutelage of Italians and Germans. My theory is the Russian sound really started after 1917.

I am no expert but I always assumed the concept of an 'authentically Russian' approach was born of three factors: the fact that 19th and early 20th century orchestras were predominantly filled with national players (though I could be very much worng with my assumption), the difference in instrument manufacture that gave distinct timbres to orchestras and the building of local schools of thought to interpretation. In the latter case if you look at Mavrinsky's recordings and then Jansons you will notice that both had a way of dropping below the dynamics marked (diminuendo?) just before a climax or tutti. With Mavrinsky it sounds natural and inspired, but for my money Janosns just sounds mannered, like a poor imitation of his teacher and mentor.

Naupilus

RE: Which is the authentic Tchaikovsky??

Mista Donut wrote:

The double champions of Europe ( holding the only two major european trophies at the same time has never been done before ) are used to kicking your butt at Old Trafford.

Benfica may well prove a good test of your crendentials for next season Donut my boy. Just hope it does not go to penalties... check yer boots.

Naupilus

RE: Which is the authentic Tchaikovsky??

naupilus wrote:

Benfica may well prove a good test of your crendentials for next season Donut my boy. Just hope it does not go to penalties... check yer boots.

We usually plan for John Terry to get sent off in the semi-finals so he is banned for the final and doesn't take a penalty, well when I say plan we just say 'Play your usual game John'. Usually works.

RE: Which is the authentic Tchaikovsky??

naupilus wrote:

I am no expert but I always assumed the concept of an 'authentically Russian' approach was born of three factors: the fact that 19th and early 20th century orchestras were predominantly filled with national players (though I could be very much worng with my assumption), the difference in instrument manufacture that gave distinct timbres to orchestras and the building of local schools of thought to interpretation. In the latter case if you look at Mavrinsky's recordings and then Jansons you will notice that both had a way of dropping below the dynamics marked (diminuendo?) just before a climax or tutti. With Mavrinsky it sounds natural and inspired, but for my money Janosns just sounds mannered, like a poor imitation of his teacher and mentor.

We are at the fringes of my "expertise" too. I did read a bit about 19th c Russian classical music performance (in a Tchaik biog, I think), but it was a while ago. The tradition was kicked off as part of Peter the Great's modernisation/westernisation program, which naturally began with wholesale import of artists and goods (recently watched a fascinating doco covering this called Art In Russia). I don't know what percentage of players would have been foreign in Tchaik's time, but I imagine some of them hung on as teachers. I've no idea about the development of instrument making in Russia - that would require a real expert on the subject.

One thing I theorise is that in the turmoil of the 1920s there would have been a lot of unusual crossover - classical musicians required to play "suitable" music for the proles; possibly, with post-war shortage of manpower, personnel from military bands were drafted into orchestras as needed. The official frowning on elitist entertainment may well have influenced a rougher, more "naive" style to emerge. All this is pure speculation on my part.

Mrav vs. Jansons (I'd say the epic is not the latter's natural field). You may well have spotted a Russian interpretive characteristic there; as for artificiality, I can't help wondering how convincing these old masters would remain if they emerged from behind the mystique of their ancient, crackly, congested sound ;)

'Art doesn't need philosophers. It just needs to communicate from soul to soul.' Alejandro Jodorowsky

RE: Which is the authentic Tchaikovsky??

Well Tagalie, I'm not sure what you'd think but the 5th especially is rather stunning in its uniquely Klempererian way. I'd beam it down to you if I could.

I seem to have made a complete mess of the 'Spring' comment. I was trying to refer to those of you in the southern hemisphere for whom not spring but autumn is approaching. Someone on the Forum lives in Brazil, I think, and now I've no idea who I should have named! Oh dear! Anyway double apologies to both of you!

Chris

Chris A.Gnostic

RE: Which is the authentic Tchaikovsky??

No, no, I know Oscar lives in Chile. Someone talked about the Carnival season and there was also something to do with the football that led me to think it to be Brazil, perhaps wrongly. Never mind, glad it's pleasant spring weather in ?Canada!

Chris

Chris A.Gnostic

RE: Which is the authentic Tchaikovsky??

No I live in Greece. Different scale altogether. Difficult to comprehent the range of Canada from here! On a smaller scale, I remember people complaining when Haitink took on the LPO as well as the Concertgebouw Orchestra. He quietly pointed out that Newcastle was further from London than Amsterdam was!

Chris

Chris A.Gnostic

RE: Which is the authentic Tchaikovsky??

Well, the best Tchaikovsky I ever heard live was by Celibidache, and those performances are now available from EMI (Symph. 4, 5, 6; Nutcracker Suite).

Also highly interesting are the recordings by Kurt Sanderling.

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